pkg kde talk - Apr 2009 - meta-kde4 and meta-kde

Welcome to the annual metapackages discussion.


At this moment, we have both meta-kde and meta-kde4 in unstable.
meta-kde is broken since it installs kde3 packages and meta-kde4 is just 
a quick upload with bump dependencies to 4.2.2.
We should kill meta-kde and update meta-kde4 to some final layout.


* meta-kde provides: kde, kde-devel and kde-core.

My proposal here is keeping kde and be the same than currently kde4.

* meta-kde4 provides: kde4, kde4-minimal and kde4-developent.

My proposal here is:
-keep kde4 and add kde (both do the same)
-keep kde4-minimal and add kde-mininal (or kde-core :? but it is not longer the
same that used to be in kde3...)
-transform kde4-development in real development meta package. In the future 
it will even have kdevelop 4...
- and add some kde-desktop-full package that is kde4 with a recommends in all
the cool apps: amarok, yakuake ktorrent... For users that just want
everything.



Having a lot of metapackages is nice, but it gets confusing. It will be hard
to reach some equilibrium here.

What do you think? What is your proposal here?

Ana

On Tuesday 07 April 2009 06:49:33 Ana Guerrero wrote:
> What do you think? What is your proposal here?.
do s/kde4/kde/ across meta-kde4 - and maybe make kde-minimal provide kde-core.

And maybe rename kde meta package to kde-full.

And nothing else.

/Sune
-- 
How can I load the bus to the hardware?

First you should never remove a GPU.

Hello,

On 2009 m. April 7 d., Tuesday 08:59:21 Sune Vuorela
wrote:
> do s/kde4/kde/ across meta-kde4 - and maybe make kde-minimal provide
> kde-core.
+1
> And maybe rename kde meta package to kde-full.
+1
> -keep kde4 and add kde (both do the same)
I think we should remove such generic package names. At least when users 
install kde-full, they are aware what they are getting into.
>- and add some kde-desktop-full package that is kde4 with a recommends in
all
>the cool apps: amarok, yakuake ktorrent... For users that just want
>everything.
that might be good for the future, when more apps go kde4. However, imho, 
depending on kde-full would be a mistake, we need to do a better selection of 
packages (e.g. as kde-standard was proposed yesterday).

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On Mar 07 Abr 2009 03:16:17 Modestas Vainius escribi?:
[snip]
> > -keep kde4 and add kde (both do the same)
>
> I think we should remove such generic package names. At least when users
> install kde-full, they are aware what they are getting into.
>
> >- and add some kde-desktop-full package that is kde4 with a recommends
in
> > all the cool apps: amarok, yakuake ktorrent... For users that just
want
> > everything.
>
> that might be good for the future, when more apps go kde4. However, imho,
> depending on kde-full would be a mistake, we need to do a better selection
> of packages (e.g. as kde-standard was proposed yesterday).
+1 to both things. 

-- 
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failed to start because of the following error:
The operation completed successfully.
  -- Windows NT Server v3.51

Lisandro Dami?n Nicanor P?rez Meyer
http://perezmeyer.com.ar/
http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/

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On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 06:49:33AM +0200, Ana Guerrero
wrote:
> 
> Welcome to the annual metapackages discussion.
>
....

After the emails that followed my first mail, I have realized that certainly 
if the 4 in the meta packages is going to be killed, the sooner, the better.

So, what about:

- kde-minimal (just rename current kde4-mininal) I am not sure kde-core longer
  fits.
- kde-full (renamed from current kde4) I agree it is clearer than kde.
- kde-development. Not only renamed from kde4-development, also address
  #484855 and convert it in what its name says.


In the future, when we have more kde4 apps in the archive we can make the
package with 3rd party apps. Modax suggested kde-standard, i think
kde-3rdparty could fit too.


Ana

On Wednesday 08 April 2009 11:52:36 Ana Guerrero wrote:
> So, what about:
>
> - kde-minimal (just rename current kde4-mininal) I am not sure kde-core
> longer fits.
> - kde-full (renamed from current kde4) I agree it is clearer than kde.
> - kde-development. Not only renamed from kde4-development, also address
>   #484855 and convert it in what its name says.
Well, being able to say "apt-get install kde" would still be very
handy.

On Mi? 08 Abr 2009 08:23:56 Peter Eisentraut escribi?:
[snip]
> Well, being able to say "apt-get install kde" would still be very
handy.
Yes, but it is a little bit confusing. Or perhaps I should say "too
lax".
Typing some more clearer words it''s a better politic imho.

-- 
I am two fools, I know, for loving, and for saying so.
  John Donne

Lisandro Dami?n Nicanor P?rez Meyer
http://perezmeyer.com.ar/
http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/

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Hello,

On 2009 m. April 8 d., Wednesday 14:23:56 Peter Eisentraut
wrote:
> Well, being able to say "apt-get install kde" would still be very
handy.
The problem with "kde" package name is its ambiguousness. Full kde is
not what
users want most of the time. Now they will have to explicitly choose either 
kde-full or kde-minimal so they will know what they are getting into.
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Ana Guerrero schrieb:
> - kde-minimal (just rename current kde4-mininal) I am not sure kde-core
longer
>   fits.
> - kde-full (renamed from current kde4) I agree it is clearer than kde.
The real question is about the need of the kde/kde4/kde-full package with all
this game stuff and dependencies to almost all debian packages. Why not suppress
it and rename kde4-minimal to kde?

Rainer

On Wednesday 08 April 2009 20:31:04 Rainer Kluge wrote:
> Ana Guerrero schrieb:
> > - kde-minimal (just rename current kde4-mininal) I am not sure
kde-core
> > longer fits.
> > - kde-full (renamed from current kde4) I agree it is clearer than kde.
>
> The real question is about the need of the kde/kde4/kde-full package with
> all this game stuff and dependencies to almost all debian packages. Why not
> suppress it and rename kde4-minimal to kde?
Exactly because of this debate.

What should be KDE?

The thing that upstream ships as KDE?
The thing that Developer A and Developer B has agreed upon?
The thing that Developer C and Developer D has agreed upon?
Whan when users wants more?

If I was to define what should be installed, I would add:

kdebase-workspace (for the desktop
kdebase (for dolphin, konqueror and such)
kdepim (or at least most of it: kontact, kmail, korga, kaddressbook, akregator 
and kjots)
kdeplasma-addons
A few games (maybe kpat and kmines or so)
parts of kdenetwork (at least kopete)
parts of kdemultimedia (at least juk as media player and kmix and something 
for playing cd''s)
At least ark, maybe other parts of kdeutils
kdegraphics
Maybe a bit more.

But I know other people would disagree.
And shipping what we currently ship as kde-minimal would I very much like to 
not ship as "KDE", as it brings not the full kde experience.

/Sune

-- 
How may I do for logging from the SIMM from Office 93?

You can never explore a button to save the periferic on a proxy.

On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 23:49:07 +0200 Sune Vuorela <Sune at vuorela.dk>
wrote:
>On Wednesday 08 April 2009 20:31:04 Rainer Kluge wrote:
>> Ana Guerrero schrieb:
>> > - kde-minimal (just rename current kde4-mininal) I am not sure
kde-core
>> > longer fits.
>> > - kde-full (renamed from current kde4) I agree it is clearer than
kde.
>>
>> The real question is about the need of the kde/kde4/kde-full package
with
>> all this game stuff and dependencies to almost all debian packages. Why
not
>> suppress it and rename kde4-minimal to kde?
>
>Exactly because of this debate.
>
>What should be KDE?
>
>The thing that upstream ships as KDE?
>The thing that Developer A and Developer B has agreed upon?
>The thing that Developer C and Developer D has agreed upon?
>Whan when users wants more?
>
>If I was to define what should be installed, I would add:
>
>kdebase-workspace (for the desktop
>kdebase (for dolphin, konqueror and such)
>kdepim (or at least most of it: kontact, kmail, korga, kaddressbook, 
akregator 
>and kjots)
>kdeplasma-addons
>A few games (maybe kpat and kmines or so)
>parts of kdenetwork (at least kopete)
>parts of kdemultimedia (at least juk as media player and kmix and 
something 
>for playing cd''s)
>At least ark, maybe other parts of kdeutils
>kdegraphics
>Maybe a bit more.
>
>But I know other people would disagree.
>And shipping what we currently ship as kde-minimal would I very much like 
to 
>not ship as "KDE", as it brings not the full kde experience.
>
I think moving things (like games) that it''s nice to provide to
recommends,
so they can be removed without removing the metapackage, will defuse a lot 
of the tension of these discussions.  If it turns out a few too many things 
get added to recommends for some people''s tastes, they can just remove
them.

Scott K

On Thursday 09 April 2009 01:56:12 Scott Kitterman
wrote:
> I think moving things (like games) that it''s nice to provide to
recommends,
> so they can be removed without removing the metapackage, will defuse a lot
> of the tension of these discussions.  If it turns out a few too many things
> get added to recommends for some people''s tastes, they can just
remove
> them.
Yeah, moving kdegames and kdeedu to recommends would seem to do what I would 
like to use.

On Thursday 09 April 2009 00:49:07 Sune Vuorela wrote:
> What should be KDE?
>
> The thing that upstream ships as KDE?
I think the "kde" package should be strongly related to what upstream
ships
when they say "new KDE version released".  That is the rule for pretty
much
all other packages, after all.

Variations should then be kde-$something, again, same as other packages.
> The thing that Developer A and Developer B has agreed upon?
> The thing that Developer C and Developer D has agreed upon?
> Whan when users wants more?
Heh, what about a kde-80-20 package that installs the 20% most popular KDE-
related packages based on popcon, which should then be enough for 80% of 
users. ;-)

On Thursday 09 April 2009 00:26:02 Peter Eisentraut
wrote:
> On Thursday 09 April 2009 00:49:07 Sune Vuorela wrote:
> > What should be KDE?
> >
> > The thing that upstream ships as KDE?
>
> I think the "kde" package should be strongly related to what
upstream
ships
> when they say "new KDE version released".  That is the rule for
pretty
much
> all other packages, after all.
>
> Variations should then be kde-$something, again, same as other 
packages.
>
> > The thing that Developer A and Developer B has agreed upon?
> > The thing that Developer C and Developer D has agreed upon?
> > Whan when users wants more?
>
> Heh, what about a kde-80-20 package that installs the 20% most popular 
KDE-
> related packages based on popcon, which should then be enough for 
80% of
> users. ;-)
>
>
> --
> http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/pkg-kde-talk
One of the 20% of most popular KDE packages would probably be kde-full 
since most users would probably just want the most complete experience.

Anyway, I think you should do what the Gnome team does, which is have a 
kde-desktop-environment package, which is what you think the base KDE is, 
and a kde package, containing all that upstream ships as KDE.

2009/4/9 Sune Vuorela <Sune at vuorela.dk>:
> On Wednesday 08 April 2009 20:31:04 Rainer Kluge wrote:
>> Ana Guerrero schrieb:
>> > - kde-minimal (just rename current kde4-mininal) I am not sure
kde-core
>> > longer fits.
>> > - kde-full (renamed from current kde4) I agree it is clearer than
kde.
>>
>> The real question is about the need of the kde/kde4/kde-full package
with
>> all this game stuff and dependencies to almost all debian packages. Why
not
>> suppress it and rename kde4-minimal to kde?
>
> Exactly because of this debate.
>
> What should be KDE?
>
> The thing that upstream ships as KDE?
> The thing that Developer A and Developer B has agreed upon?
> The thing that Developer C and Developer D has agreed upon?
> Whan when users wants more?
>
> If I was to define what should be installed, I would add:
>
> kdebase-workspace (for the desktop
> kdebase (for dolphin, konqueror and such)
> kdepim (or at least most of it: kontact, kmail, korga, kaddressbook,
akregator
> and kjots)
> kdeplasma-addons
> A few games (maybe kpat and kmines or so)
> parts of kdenetwork (at least kopete)
> parts of kdemultimedia (at least juk as media player and kmix and something
> for playing cd''s)
> At least ark, maybe other parts of kdeutils
> kdegraphics
> Maybe a bit more.
That was exactly the idea of the "kde-standard" metapackage that me
and Modax were discussing in irc: Make kde-standard install a subset
of kde-full that contains what most people use from kde packages, but
not 3rd-party kde apps. So, we would have:

kde-minimal: depends on all of kdebase, kdelibs, kdepimlibs.
kde-standard: depends on the most used kde packages (like those
mentioned above by Sune), including kde-minimal
kde-full: depends on what upstream ships as kde.

In the future we could have kde-3rdparty (or kde-extras?), as Ana
suggested, that installs a set of 3rdparty kde apps like amarok,
ktorrent, etc.... but I think this is not for now.

Regards

On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 06:49:33AM +0200, Ana Guerrero
wrote:
> 
> We should kill meta-kde and update meta-kde4 to some final layout.
>
...

After leaving this issue "sleep" a couple of weeks, I am all for:

kde-full (current kde4)
kde-minimal
kde-thirdparty

And we can keep using kde-$MEANING for the metapackages.
Since we have to go to NEW i will add already kde-thirdparty with
RECOMMENDS in amarok, ktorrent, yakuake, rsibreak anything else?

I do not know if we need kde-development, and what to put here.
If you think it is worth it, anwser here why :D

Another question: kde-full should provide "kde" ?

We really need to move forward with the metapackages before people get very
used to current ones...


Ana

On Mi? 22 Abr 2009 13:07:02 Ana Guerrero escribi?:
> On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 06:49:33AM +0200, Ana Guerrero wrote:
> > We should kill meta-kde and update meta-kde4 to some final layout.
>
> ...
>
> After leaving this issue "sleep" a couple of weeks, I am all for:
>
> kde-full (current kde4)
> kde-minimal
> kde-thirdparty
>
> And we can keep using kde-$MEANING for the metapackages.
+1
> Since we have to go to NEW i will add already kde-thirdparty with
> RECOMMENDS in amarok, ktorrent, yakuake, rsibreak anything else?
?konversation maybe?
> Another question: kde-full should provide "kde" ?
IMHO, the metapackage kde should not exist.
> We really need to move forward with the metapackages before people get very
> used to current ones...
I do also agree here.

Reagrds, Lisandro.

-- 
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As? se corrobora el software legal en Argentina

Lisandro Dami?n Nicanor P?rez Meyer
http://perezmeyer.com.ar/
http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/

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> kde-thirdparty
/me prefers kde-extras

cheers,

Fathi