>|What systems did you test on that makes you think this font is>|installed "on every Linux system"? It''s one of the urw base35 clones that ghostscript depends on. Do locate n019043l.pfb on any Linux system. Or xlsfonts | grep ''nimbus sans l-medium-r-condensed''. But applications like Firefox don''t see it. Bob T.
Le Mar 4 mars 2008 18:11, Bob Tennent a ?crit :> >|What systems did you test on that makes you think this font is > >|installed "on every Linux system"? > > It''s one of the urw base35 clones that ghostscript depends on. Do > > locate n019043l.pfb > > on any Linux system. Or > > xlsfonts | grep ''nimbus sans l-medium-r-condensed''.In other words, font in a legacy format, with limited encoding coverage, not exposed to modern apps in many distributions. -- Nicolas Mailhot
>|> It''s one of the urw base35 clones that ghostscript depends on. Do>|> >|> locate n019043l.pfb >|> >|> on any Linux system. Or >|> >|> xlsfonts | grep ''nimbus sans l-medium-r-condensed''. >| >|In other words, font in a legacy format type 1 is now a "legacy format"? >| with limited encoding coverage n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-adobe-standard n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-ascii-0 n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso10646-1 n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-10 n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-13 n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-15 n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-1 n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-2 n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-3 n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-4 n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-5 n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-9 n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-koi8-e n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-koi8-ru n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-koi8-r n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-koi8-u n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-koi8-uni n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-microsoft-cp1252 >| not exposed to modern apps in many distributions. This is precisely the problem. If Firefox can''t even *see* the condensed font, web designers can''t assume it''s available. And web designers *really* want to be able to use a condensed sans serif font. No matter what you say against it, that font is the most widely available candidate. Bob T.
Le mardi 04 mars 2008 ? 12:39 -0500, Bob Tennent a ?crit :> >|> It''s one of the urw base35 clones that ghostscript depends on. Do > >|> > >|> locate n019043l.pfb > >|> > >|> on any Linux system. Or > >|> > >|> xlsfonts | grep ''nimbus sans l-medium-r-condensed''. > >| > >|In other words, font in a legacy format > > type 1 is now a "legacy format"?Been superceded by OTF Apple-side. Go to any web font market, new fonts are not released as type1 nowadays (except as an afterthought). And the switch has been even more complete for Linux FLOSS fonts.> >| with limited encoding coverage > > n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-adobe-standard?> n019063l.pfb -urw-nimbus sans l-medium-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-microsoft-cp1252This was good 5-6 years ago, not really impressive now (also just because you have many separate files does not mean the code blocks are actually completely filled.> >| not exposed to modern apps in many distributions. > > This is precisely the problem. If Firefox can''t even *see* the condensed > font, web designers can''t assume it''s available. And web designers > *really* want to be able to use a condensed sans serif font.It''s infortunate we have aliases for fantasy fonts no one really cares about but no default alias for condensed fonts.> No matter > what you say against it, that font is the most widely available > candidate.Not really anymore. -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message =?ISO-8859-1?Q?num=E9riquement?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_sign=E9e?Url : http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/fontconfig/attachments/20080304/b6c1c51a/attachment.pgp
>>>>> "Bob" == Bob Tennent <rdtennent at hotmail.com> writes:Bob> It''s one of the urw base35 clones that ghostscript depends on. Do Bob> locate n019043l.pfb That comes with ghostscript. On my gentoo laptop those fonts are installed in /usr/share/fonts/urw-fonts and thus are available via fontconfig. :; fc-cat /usr/share/fonts/urw-fonts|egrep Conden|cut -c-78 "n019043l.pfb" 0 "Nimbus Sans L Condensed:style=Regular:slant=0:weight=80:widt "n019044l.pfb" 0 "Nimbus Sans L Condensed:style=Bold:slant=0:weight=200:width"n019063l.pfb" 0 "Nimbus Sans L Condensed:style=Regular Italic:slant=100:weigh "n019064l.pfb" 0 "Nimbus Sans L Condensed:style=Bold Italic:slant=100:weight=2 :; fc-match ''Nimbus Sans L Condensed:style=Regular'' n019043l.pfb: "Nimbus Sans L Condensed" "Regular" :; fc-match ''Nimbus Sans L Condensed:style=Bold'' n019044l.pfb: "Nimbus Sans L Condensed" "Bold" :; fc-match ''Nimbus Sans L Condensed:style=Regular Italic'' n019063l.pfb: "Nimbus Sans L Condensed" "Regular Italic" :; fc-match ''Nimbus Sans L Condensed:style=Bold Italic'' n019064l.pfb: "Nimbus Sans L Condensed" "Bold Italic" Any dist which fails to include the urw fonts in their default <dir/> list does need to be fixed. Gentoo does this by installing the fonts under /usr/share/fonts and configuring gs to look there. That said, ghostscript 8.62 moves the default install directory for their fonts to the Resource dir under /usr/share/ghostscript (which allows them to be seen w/o a Fontmap file if their file names match their PostScript names, among other benefits). It is important for every dist to ensure that fonts.conf includes the urw fonts no matter where they are installed. Also, either 30-metrics-aliases.conf or 30-urw-aliases.conf needs to add support to map Helvetica Narrow to Nimbus Sans L Condensed. And similarly for Arial Narrow. -JimC -- James Cloos <cloos at jhcloos.com> OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6
On 2008/03/04 12:11 (GMT-0500) Bob Tennent apparently typed:>Felix Miata wrote:> >|What systems did you test on that makes you think this font is > >|installed "on every Linux system"?> It''s one of the urw base35 clones that ghostscript depends on. Do> locate n019043l.pfb> on any Linux system. Or> xlsfonts | grep ''nimbus sans l-medium-r-condensed''.> But applications like Firefox don''t see it.I did more checking. FF can see it, assuming correct system configuration to serve it up via fontconfig. https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=198668 is from Mandriva Cooker, which matches back at least as far as v2007.0. It doesn''t work in any other distros I checked, but Mandriva apparently has proven it possible. KDE seems to think it''s a TT font, but I suppose that''s a bug, since the only such font I can locate in the fonts trees in /usr is n019043l.pfb. For systems over which you have no control, and for current and near future, I suggest using arial narrow as a CSS fallback for cases where more M$ fonts are installed than just the basic web fonts. For the long term, maybe filing some bugs against the various distros, like https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=367188 on SUSE, could improve things. Another possible approach: a campaign to get the DejaVu project to add a narrow or extra condensed sans to its suite would improve the Linux font selection down the road sometime. Right now it has a condensed sans, but that only shrinks its Verdana work-alike down to the size of lower case Arial. -- "Let us not love with words or in talk only. Let us love by what we do." 1 John 3:18 NLV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/
>|>Felix Miata wrote:>| >|> But applications like Firefox don''t see it. >| >|I did more checking. FF can see it, assuming correct system configuration >|to >|serve it up via fontconfig. >|https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=198668 is from Mandriva >|Cooker, >|which matches back at least as far as v2007.0. I can''t access a bugzilla.novell bug 198668. That attachment looks like a screenshot of Firefox displaying a jpeg. I''ve looked at the Mandriva source rpm for fontconfig and I don''t see anything related to Condensed. Have they patched Firefox? If it can be done using fontconfig, how? Surely someone on this list would be able to say. I can certainly match it using :family="Nimbus Sans L":width=75 but how to make it look like a font-family to Firefox? >|It doesn''t work in >|any other >|distros I checked, but Mandriva apparently has proven it possible. >| >|KDE seems to think it''s a TT font, but I suppose that''s a bug, since >|the only >|such font I can locate in the fonts trees in /usr is n019043l.pfb. On my Fedora system, Nimbus Sans L Condensed doesn''t show up at all in KDE.
Le mercredi 05 mars 2008 ? 13:59 -0500, Bob Tennent a ?crit :> >|>Felix Miata wrote: > >| > >|> But applications like Firefox don''t see it. > >| > >|I did more checking. FF can see it, assuming correct system configuration > >|to > >|serve it up via fontconfig. > >|https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=198668 is from Mandriva > >|Cooker, > >|which matches back at least as far as v2007.0. > > I can''t access a bugzilla.novell bug 198668. That attachment looks like > a screenshot of Firefox displaying a jpeg. I''ve looked at the Mandriva > source rpm for fontconfig and I don''t see anything related to Condensed. > Have they patched Firefox?No.> > If it can be done using fontconfig, how? Surely someone on this list > would be able to say. I can certainly match it using > > :family="Nimbus Sans L":width=75 > > but how to make it look like a font-family to Firefox?You might want to look at /etc/fonts/conf.d/30-mdv-avoid-bitmap.conf -- Frederic Crozat <fcrozat at mandriva.com> Mandriva
On 2008/03/05 13:59 (GMT-0500) Bob Tennent apparently typed:>>|>Felix Miata wrote:>>|> But applications like Firefox don''t see it.>>|I did more checking. FF can see it, assuming correct system configuration to >>|serve it up via fontconfig. >>|https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=198668 is from Mandriva >>|Cooker, which matches back at least as far as v2007.0.> I can''t access a bugzilla.novell bug 198668.Try again. If you got the image, you can get the regular public access version. It''s very slow to get a first connect, but then behaves more or less normally for https. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=367188> That attachment looks like > a screenshot of Firefox displaying a jpeg.It''s a jpeg of FF2 displaying the Novell bug''s testcase URL.> I''ve looked at the Mandriva > source rpm for fontconfig and I don''t see anything related to Condensed. > Have they patched Firefox?FF3B3 from Mozilla.org behaves essentially the same as the distro''s FF2. The difference is that Mandriva has a different Nimbus font package that includes the condensed variant as a 100% width separate font.> If it can be done using fontconfig, how? Surely someone on this list > would be able to say. I can certainly match it using> :family="Nimbus Sans L":width=75> but how to make it look like a font-family to Firefox?I think if fontconfig had an alias set up for it FF would have no problem using it.> >|It doesn''t work in > >|any other > >|distros I checked, but Mandriva apparently has proven it possible.> >|KDE seems to think it''s a TT font, but I suppose that''s a bug, since > >|the only > >|such font I can locate in the fonts trees in /usr is n019043l.pfb.> On my Fedora system, Nimbus Sans L Condensed doesn''t show up at all in > KDE.Watch the Novell bug''s resolution, then consider following it up with something similar in Fedora''s bugzilla and/or manually doing whatever is required to fix the Novell bug. The problem is that it should solve the problem for systems under your direct control, but is that your original problem? What about the rest of Linux FF users? Maybe a fontconfig enhancement bug to include a default alias for it will be better solution than individual bugs for each distro. Another good long-term solution might be if "condensed" could be another property added to font-variant in the CSS specs. http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-fonts/#font-variant -- "Let us not love with words or in talk only. Let us love by what we do." 1 John 3:18 NLV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/
Le mercredi 05 mars 2008 ? 14:25 -0500, Felix Miata a ?crit :> Watch the Novell bug''s resolution, then consider following it up with > something similar in Fedora''s bugzilla and/or manually doing whatever is > required to fix the Novell bug.The Novell''s bug is asking to imitate Mandriva and change an existing font file to workaround an application bug. This does not scale you''d need to change the family of all the popular in-the-wild condensed fonts (assuming their license allow it) to make condensed selection by family name work. And then change wide narrow ultra-condensed extra-condensed semi-condensed semi-expanded expanded extra-expanded ultra-expanded fonts too to cater for web designers that want the corresponding stretch variants.> Another good long-term solution might be if "condensed" could be another > property added to font-variant in the CSS specs. > http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-fonts/#font-variantWhat would be the benefit over implementing the font-stretch property already standardised by the w3c a few ? under your link? -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message =?ISO-8859-1?Q?num=E9riquement?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_sign=E9e?Url : http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/fontconfig/attachments/20080305/80d50221/attachment-0001.pgp
>|>>|https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=198668 is from Mandriva>|>>|Cooker, which matches back at least as far as v2007.0. >| >|> I can''t access a bugzilla.novell bug 198668. >| >|Try again. If you got the image, you can get the regular public access >|version. It''s very slow to get a first connect, but then behaves more >|or less >|normally for https. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=367188 Thanks! That''s a different bug number. >|The problem is that it should solve the problem for systems under >|your direct >|control, but is that your original problem? What about the rest of >|Linux FF >|users? Maybe a fontconfig enhancement bug to include a default alias >|for it >|will be better solution than individual bugs for each distro. I agree, assuming it''s feasible. Long-term, I agree implementing font-stretch would be best, but how likely is that (unless IE8 has it!). Bob T.
On 2008/03/05 20:43 (GMT+0100) Nicolas Mailhot apparently typed:> Le mercredi 05 mars 2008 ? 14:25 -0500, Felix Miata a ??crit :>> Watch the Novell bug''s resolution, then consider following it up with >> something similar in Fedora''s bugzilla and/or manually doing whatever is >> required to fix the Novell bug.> The Novell''s bug is asking to imitate Mandriva and change an existing > font file to workaround an application bug.When I wrote that I wasn''t aware of what Mandriva did to produce a fontconfig providable font by the name Nimbus Sans L Condensed.> This does not scale you''d > need to change the family of all the popular in-the-wild condensed fonts > (assuming their license allow it) to make condensed selection by family > name work.Retrofitting is obviously no solution, but stopping future hemorrhaging by including an alias in future fontconfig releases seems reasonable to me.>> Another good long-term solution might be if "condensed" could be another >> property added to font-variant in the CSS specs. >> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-fonts/#font-variant> What would be the benefit over implementing the font-stretch property > already standardised by the w3c a few ?? under your link?Nimbus Sans L doesn''t need "stretching". The font files already provide a condensed variant @ 75% width of the base called condensed. The font-subsystem, fontconfig in this case, apparently already knows about it, but there''s apparently no means for common non-PS apps to call it. -- "Let us not love with words or in talk only. Let us love by what we do." 1 John 3:18 NLV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/
Le mercredi 05 mars 2008 ? 19:29 -0500, Felix Miata a ?crit :> On 2008/03/05 20:43 (GMT+0100) Nicolas Mailhot apparently typed:> >> Another good long-term solution might be if "condensed" could be another > >> property added to font-variant in the CSS specs. > >> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-fonts/#font-variant > > > What would be the benefit over implementing the font-stretch property > > already standardised by the w3c a few ?? under your link? > > Nimbus Sans L doesn''t need "stretching". The font files already provide a > condensed variant @ 75% width of the base called condensed.It seems to me the W3C description is pretty clear: ? The ''font-stretch'' property selects a normal, condensed, or extended face from a font family ? This property is not about "stretching" non-condensed faces, but about selecting a face inside a family based on its "stretch" factor. Which is exactly what you want for Nimbus Sans L. (the CSS specs were written in collaboration with the Microsoft Typography guys that defined OpenType tables; is it surprising there is a direct concept mapping?)> The > font-subsystem, fontconfig in this case, apparently already knows > about it, > but there''s apparently no means for common non-PS apps to call it.Indeed implementing ''font-stretch'' only requires implementing the CSS glue, since low-level libs are smart enough already. -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message =?ISO-8859-1?Q?num=E9riquement?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_sign=E9e?Url : http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/fontconfig/attachments/20080306/2690862a/attachment.pgp