So what *specifically* do we need to do to make it easier to contribute and provide feedback? What are the easiest things we can start doing right now with the folks we have? The two biggies for me: 1) Unify the multiple wiki''s, trackers, mailing lists, etc. We need to decide whether we''re going to use RubyForge or GitHub. We need a single place for people to go. Madness and confusion lies down the path of using both of them at the same time. That said, the discussion also needs to address how "unification" fits in with the final Radiant-based project website. Does the Radiant CMS allow us to put a facade over either RubyForge or GitHub and tie things together seamlesssly? Or does Radiant try to duplicate certain features and we need to decide what to enable/disable when integrating. One of the hard questions we need about the RubyForge content is, "Do we really even need the site too stay live? Is the content so outdated that it is both unhelpful and dangerously incorrect?" 2) Ensure our mindset is one of enabling "micro contributions" from people. This means that (a) we have a very visible project TODO page on the wiki, and (b) the TODO list contains tasks grouped by expected implementation difficulty and importance. This allows people to have better expectations of what they''re getting into. For example, for the documentation and installer tasks on http://gist.github.com/151832. Both need to be broken down a bit more if possible to show "micro tasks" that folks can help Luis and Gordon out with. And the balance is that I don''t think we want to make the TODO list too overwhelming to maintain or understand. We can certainly go over the top, but... Maybe something along the lines of: Critical Project Tasks ===================== Difficult to Implement ---------------------- ... Moderately Difficult to Implement --------------------------------- ... Easy to Implement ----------------- ... Important, but Not Critical Project Tasks ======================================== (same categories as above)
On 04/08/2009 22:07, Jon wrote:> So what *specifically* do we need to do to make it easier to contribute and provide feedback? What are the easiest things we can start doing right now with the folks we have?One thing that occurred to me is the lack of accessibility of this mailing list. It''s where the beating heart of RubyInstaller lies, IMHO, but herein lies the problem: it''s really quite hard to find. Plus there are three lists, which I think seems like overkill to me, judging by the amount of traffic on the other lists, and probably encourages the problem of "too many choices" (http://sivers.org/jam). I think one list might be a better way to go. You could provide a Feedburner email subscription to the site feed for those that only want announcements. I always cringe a little when I see a mailman list these days because it''s yet another set of credentials I have to maintain. I would personally prefer to see a central list hosted on Google Groups for the sheer convenience of it. Or failing that, setup a mirror on Google Groups, or Nabble, or Ruby Forum? Nabble is nice because it gives you a forum-like front-end that can be embedded into the site. In other words, strip out unnecessary options, simplify, and make the discussion(s) more visible. Charles
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 3:29 AM, Charles Roper<reachme at charlesroper.co.uk> wrote:> On 04/08/2009 22:07, Jon wrote: >> >> So what *specifically* do we need to do to make it easier to contribute >> and provide feedback? ?What are the easiest things we can start doing right >> now with the folks we have? > > One thing that occurred to me is the lack of accessibility of this mailing > list. It''s where the beating heart of RubyInstaller lies, IMHO, but herein > lies the problem: it''s really quite hard to find. >I just added a "Community" page to the wiki that links to the Rubyforge list page. This can, of course, be updated to another list, if need be.> Plus there are three lists, which I think seems like overkill to me, judging > by the amount of traffic on the other lists, and probably encourages the > problem of "too many choices" (http://sivers.org/jam). I think one list > might be a better way to go. You could provide a Feedburner email > subscription to the site feed for those that only want announcements. >Agreed. One list is all we need.> I always cringe a little when I see a mailman list these days because it''s > yet another set of credentials I have to maintain. I would personally prefer > to see a central list hosted on Google Groups for the sheer convenience of > it. Or failing that, setup a mirror on Google Groups, or Nabble, or Ruby > Forum? Nabble is nice because it gives you a forum-like front-end that can > be embedded into the site. > > In other words, strip out unnecessary options, simplify, and make the > discussion(s) more visible. >I''m for Google Groups, and would be happy to get the ball rolling there. It would definitely be more accessible to newcomers (easier to find, sign up, and search).
> I''m for Google Groups, and would be happy to get the ball rolling > there. It would definitely be more accessible to newcomers (easier to > find, sign up, and search).I also agree. It''s very easy to manage multiple mailing lists/groups and individually set mail notifications all in one simple interface.
>> I''m for Google Groups, and would be happy to get the ball rolling >> there. ?It would definitely be more accessible to newcomers (easier to >> find, sign up, and search).+1 far easier for users to post to and search.
2009/8/8 Matt Hulse <matt.hulse at gmail.com>:>> I''m for Google Groups, and would be happy to get the ball rolling >> there. ?It would definitely be more accessible to newcomers (easier to >> find, sign up, and search). > > Gordon, > I see that you''ve got a full plate so I was going to go ahead and get the > google group setup but rubyinstaller appears to be taken.Go figure, who on earth will do that??? http://groups.google.com/group/rubyinstaller Me! :-P> Have you already > started on that group? ?If not, what would you prefer for a group name? > ?rubyinstaller-dev is available. ?I''ll make you an owner once the group is > setup. >RubyInstaller it is, no need for an aditional dev list. For the time being I''m keeping both -users, -dev and groups active, but sooner than later we would have to decide and disable the others. Cheers, -- Luis Lavena AREA 17 - Perfection in design is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but rather when there is nothing more to take away. Antoine de Saint-Exup?ry
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Luis Lavena<luislavena at gmail.com> wrote:> 2009/8/8 Matt Hulse <matt.hulse at gmail.com>: >>> I''m for Google Groups, and would be happy to get the ball rolling >>> there. ?It would definitely be more accessible to newcomers (easier to >>> find, sign up, and search). >> >> Gordon, >> I see that you''ve got a full plate so I was going to go ahead and get the >> google group setup but rubyinstaller appears to be taken. > > Go figure, who on earth will do that??? > > http://groups.google.com/group/rubyinstaller > > Me! :-P > >> Have you already >> started on that group? ?If not, what would you prefer for a group name? >> ?rubyinstaller-dev is available. ?I''ll make you an owner once the group is >> setup. >> > > RubyInstaller it is, no need for an aditional dev list. > > For the time being I''m keeping both -users, -dev and groups active, > but sooner than later we would have to decide and disable the others. >I''ve looked into turning off the rubyforge mailing lists. We can mark them private for a while, and no new folks will be able to sign up for them. We can send emails out to those lists saying to switch to google groups for a month or so, then delete them.
> > RubyInstaller it is, no need for an aditional dev list. > > > > For the time being I''m keeping both -users, -dev and groups active, > > but sooner than later we would have to decide and disable the others. > > > > I''ve looked into turning off the rubyforge mailing lists. We can mark > them private for a while, and no new folks will be able to sign up for > them. We can send emails out to those lists saying to switch to > google groups for a month or so, then delete them.+1 for your private transition plan. How will archived ML traffic be handled? FWIW, I just did a very quick search at Nabble and Gmane and didn''t find any of our lists. Is there really anything in the archives we need to be concerned with? Luis...when would you like us to start using the google groups for our dev discussions rather than this list? Now? :) Jon
Hello 2009/8/5 Jon <jon.forums at gmail.com>:> >> I''m for Google Groups, and would be happy to get the ball rolling >> there. ?It would definitely be more accessible to newcomers (easier to >> find, sign up, and search). > > I also agree. ?It''s very easy to manage multiple mailing lists/groups and individually set mail notifications all in one simple interface.How exactly is a Goolgle Group an improvement over a Rubyforge mailing list? You still have to create an account to join, and I don''t even see the option to join with a non-Gmail address. Thanks Michal
2009/8/11 Matt Hulse <matt.hulse at gmail.com>:> >> How exactly is a Goolgle Group an improvement over a Rubyforge mailing >> list? >> >> You still have to create an account to join, and I don''t even see the >> option to join with a non-Gmail address. > > > You need a google account to sign-in but I''m pretty sure you don''t have to > use a google email to interact with the list. ?If I remember correctly once > you create a google account, you are then asked what email you would like to > use for the google group. > There are many projects (including ruby-talk, ruby-dev, and svn to name a > few) using google groups and each of them allow access with the same google > account in a convenient location. ?Aside from one account for multiple > lists, I really like the way the web interface organizes threads. ?Then > again, that''s one of the reasons I prefer gmail so if you don''t like gmail > then you''ll probably be better off interacting via your current email. ?With > the web interface you also get google search of the list instantly for free, > (I''d imagine this gets the list indexed by google at large much sooner.) > I''m actually a little surprised that you''ve never tried out gmail, google > calendar, or google docs. ?Your missing out IMHO.I have tried gmail, and I am planning to move away from it again as I am not particularly satisfied with the experience and alternatives are available by now. I cannot tell anything about google calendar but my colleague is using google docs in a project and the results aren''t very good either. It''s a nice cool toy but unfit for serious work. As for google groups it''s only one of many subscribe / archive web applications available. If it is so much preferable to what rubyforge has now then perhaps it is time to file a request for a better mailing list manager. Thanks Michal
On 12/08/2009 04:42, Jon wrote:> It''s so easy to sign in, click on "My Groups", see a summary of the new items with a link to the web interface for the group. I can also go to "Manage my memberships" and change a few things with the most important being simply selecting via a dropdown on how I get notified via email or unsubscribe.This sums it up for me. I''m currently a member of over 25 groups (manager of one of them). I have individual email delivered for only very few of them, digests for others, and web-interface only for the majority because I participate in them only very infrequently. Tracking all of these groups individually would be incredibly inconvenient. Plus there are extra features, such as file upload, wiki pages and archives that are so much more sane than the Mailman default. Regarding requiring a Google Account, you can use any email address when you sign up. Here''s a screenshot I took after clicking the "Create an account" link on the http://groups.google.com page: http://easycaptures.com/1929331226 Charles
> How exactly is a Goolgle Group an improvement over a Rubyforge mailing list? > > You still have to create an account to join, and I don''t even see the > option to join with a non-Gmail address. > > Thanks > > MichalFor me, Google Groups makes me much more efficient in that I have a single place to go to manage the multiple mailing lists I''m interested in. It''s so easy to sign in, click on "My Groups", see a summary of the new items with a link to the web interface for the group. I can also go to "Manage my memberships" and change a few things with the most important being simply selecting via a dropdown on how I get notified via email or unsubscribe. <aside> I don''t often use the group web intfc and primarily use http://sylpheed.sraoss.jp/en/ on my Windows machines to filter these email messages from a single Gmail account into multiple folders. It''s a really, really, really lightweight and cool email client for Windows. It can even be visually themed via "gtkrc" to look really un-Windows battleship grey like :) </aside> Contrast this with the monkey dance that occurs with other lists in which you have to send a message (containing specific "commands" that you''ve likely forgotten) to a specific "control" mail address (that you''ve likely forgotten). More than once, I''ve forgotten the specifics and had to search for the control mail address and then send it a "help" message to find out commands to do things like temporarily stop receiving emails, etc. Waste of time. I find the Google Group experience much more convenient in addition to arguably being more visible, more searchable, etc. While I don''t know how big an issue it is for you to get/use a Google account, I really think that once you use Google Groups you''ll find it''s more respectful of your time. Not without its warts of course, but I think a huge step forward. Jon