Ironruby core - Jun 2008 - Wondering how many will go with C#, after IronRuby arrives

Ruby and IronRuby are the best thing happened to us.

We had no options in the past to work with asp.net except Vb.net and C#.
And to my knowledge Vb.Net community was silently forced to switchover
to C#, by making more examples available in C# than Vb.Net.

Even C# developers are currently offered more salary than Vb.Net

But *NOW* that''s not the scenario any more.

With IronRuby, we can enjoy best of both the world... I mean IronRuby on
Rails and Asp.Net MVC with IronRuby. Ruby in fact has won many hearts by
its dynamic language and more power.

Just wondering what percentage will still prefer to work with the ugly
coding and long code approach with C#.....?
-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

> Just wondering what percentage will still prefer to work with the ugly
> coding and long code approach with C#.....?
------------------------------------------------------------
To be frank and honest... I just hate C#. C# 3.0 is just nothing but 
imitating few powers of Ruby onto C#.

I just do not know.. whether MSFT will respect IronRuby like C#.

The Day i feel, IronRuby is treated as a MSFT child, i will make a 
switchover to IronRuby with wasting a second.

I am currently exploring Ruby and Ruby on Rails

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Iron Ruby wrote:
> The Day i feel, IronRuby is treated as a MSFT child, i will make a 
> switchover to IronRuby with wasting a second.
> 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,

Let me make few things clear. IronRuby/Ironpython are the first ever 
open source projects taken up by MSFT.

If they are really serious, they should justify both the new DLR 
languages with a good IDE like VS Express Tools. Not much cannot be 
done, without a good IDE support. I do not think any good IDE is shaping 
up at MSFT end for this new language support.

The only IronRuby tool that''s shaping up is from Sapphire Steel, but 
that does not come free. Sun has been working very hard with their 
NetBeans IDE. Its latest Netbeans 6.1 can serve as a great inspiration 
for IronRuby Team.

MSFT has expertise with great IDE tools from beginning and with VS 
Express Tools and VS 2008, i am surprised to see, what''s stopping MSFT 
to go ahead with IronRuby support within VS Express Tools.

Provided i get a good IDE from MSFT, i am sure to join u guys .

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

I think you''ll find that C# has a strong following and that not 
*everyone* prefers Ruby (or Python)...

Michael Foord

SoftMind Systems wrote:
>> Just wondering what percentage will still prefer to work with the ugly
>> coding and long code approach with C#.....?
>>     
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> To be frank and honest... I just hate C#. C# 3.0 is just nothing but 
> imitating few powers of Ruby onto C#.
>
> I just do not know.. whether MSFT will respect IronRuby like C#.
>
> The Day i feel, IronRuby is treated as a MSFT child, i will make a 
> switchover to IronRuby with wasting a second.
>
> I am currently exploring Ruby and Ruby on Rails
>
>

Softmind Technology wrote:
> The only IronRuby tool that''s shaping up is from Sapphire Steel,
but
> that does not come free. 
Can I clarify that IronRuby In Steel - our IronRuby-specific IDE - is 
free and will remain free.

best wishes
Huw

SapphireSteel Software
Ruby and Rails In Visual Studio
http://www.sapphiresteel.com
-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

I think ''jumping ship'' is the wrong way to think about it. C#
is still
a very useful language, however in certain situations Ruby is the more
logical choice. I don''t see this as either\or, but a way to extend
your toolset and choice the right language for your scenario - be it
C#, Ruby or even VB.net!  Plus there are a lot of legacy systems and
knowledge based around C#, certainly a decision when deciding on your
language.

Ben
Blog.BenHall.me.uk


On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Michael Foord
<fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk> wrote:
> I think you''ll find that C# has a strong following and that not
*everyone*
> prefers Ruby (or Python)...
>
> Michael Foord
>
> SoftMind Systems wrote:
>>>
>>> Just wondering what percentage will still prefer to work with the
ugly
>>> coding and long code approach with C#.....?
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> To be frank and honest... I just hate C#. C# 3.0 is just nothing but
>> imitating few powers of Ruby onto C#.
>>
>> I just do not know.. whether MSFT will respect IronRuby like C#.
>>
>> The Day i feel, IronRuby is treated as a MSFT child, i will make a
>> switchover to IronRuby with wasting a second.
>>
>> I am currently exploring Ruby and Ruby on Rails
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ironruby-core mailing list
> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>

Michael Foord wrote:
> I think you''ll find that C# has a strong following and that not
> *everyone* prefers Ruby (or Python)...
> 
> Michael Foord
----------------------------------------
Agreed, C# has a great following, but it was because there was no other 
*OPTION* to work with .Net.

Ruby without IronRuby is neck to neck with C# as per Tiobe Index.
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

Guess what popularity IronRuby will gain, once it enters .Net Platform..
I''m sure it will take over C# soon

Just my Opinion.

SoftMind.
-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Hi,

I VOTE FOR IRONRUBY....My Big PLUS for it. +

I always kept myself away from .Net, since i never liked C#, and i was 
sorry to see the Vb.Net community ignored after their long association 
with VB6 and then Vb.Net.

MSFT should support their loyal developers ( Vb6 and Vb.Net ) first. C# 
came much later. I was scared to be ignored in long run.

With IronRuby/Ruby, i am safe with both the worlds.

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

I don''t think Microsoft ignored the VB.net community, infact is has
some real nice features not found in C#. I don''t see why Microsoft
should support VB6 when its a horrible language for actual
development.





On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Rahil Kantharia <lists at ruby-forum.com>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I VOTE FOR IRONRUBY....My Big PLUS for it. +
>
> I always kept myself away from .Net, since i never liked C#, and i was
> sorry to see the Vb.Net community ignored after their long association
> with VB6 and then Vb.Net.
>
> MSFT should support their loyal developers ( Vb6 and Vb.Net ) first. C#
> came much later. I was scared to be ignored in long run.
>
> With IronRuby/Ruby, i am safe with both the worlds.
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Ironruby-core mailing list
> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:43 AM, Softmind Technology <lists at
ruby-forum.com>
wrote:
> Not much cannot be done, without a good IDE support.
>
 The same reason you think this is the same reason Ruby will have a hard
time succeeding in the .NET community. Ruby didn''t get to where it is
today
with overwhelming IDE support, and I don''t think it _needs_ the kind of
IDE
support like you get with Visual Studio to move forward.

You can argue that VB and C# and Java need that level of IDE support. My
opinion is that the IDEs have lead to the state of those languages today,
and is part of the reason so many are looking to Ruby and Python.
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On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:48 AM, Mike Moore <blowmage at gmail.com>
wrote:
>  The same reason you think this is the same reason Ruby will have a hard
> time succeeding in the .NET community. Ruby didn''t get to where it
is today
> with overwhelming IDE support, and I don''t think it _needs_ the
kind of IDE
> support like you get with Visual Studio to move forward.
I have to agree with Mike here.  Ruby development with TextMate (a
text editor only) works wonderfully, but I would be hesitant to
develop C# applications in the same way.

On the other hand, one thing that will be really nice is to have a
debugger that works easily, and at least similar to the one in Visual
Studio.

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 4:33 AM, Ben Hall <ben2004uk at googlemail.com>
wrote:
> I think ''jumping ship'' is the wrong way to think about
it. C# is still
> a very useful language, however in certain situations Ruby is the more
> logical choice. I don''t see this as either\or, but a way to extend
> your toolset and choice the right language for your scenario - be it
> C#, Ruby or even VB.net!  Plus there are a lot of legacy systems and
> knowledge based around C#, certainly a decision when deciding on your
> language.
>
I believe the future will be similar to the whole ''polyglot
programming'' or
''language oriented programming'' meme. A strong focus on domain
specific
languages built with dynamic languages, lots of business logic in a dynamic
language, and a platform layer underneath built with a language like C# that
is closely aligned with the VM.

I did a presentation about this. You can get the slides here:

http://blowmage.com/2008/3/10/ironruby-csharp-awesomeness

And I recorded a podcast with Ola Bini about this. You can find that here:

http://rubiverse.com/podcasts/5-ola-bini-on-polyglot-programming

~Mike
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Ben Hall wrote:
 I don''t see why Microsoft
> should support VB6 when its a horrible language for actual
> development.
---------------------------------------------------
Hi,

Just to clarify. By VB6 and Vb.Net i meant those, dedicated developers 
who started their career with VB and ended up with Vb.Net. MSFT should 
support keeping their old establishment in mind. Majority of VB6 
developers had no other option but to go with Vb.Net

MSFT created C#, just to attract Java community, but infact it did not 
happen.
Java was scared of Ruby and hence jRuby appeared. MS waked up a bit 
later and now we have IronRuby.

Its no wonder that Ruby is here to stay for longer time. Its important 
to see, how MSFT treats this new baby.
-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 6:55 AM, Mike Moore <blowmage at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> I believe the future will be similar to the whole ''polyglot
programming'' or
> ''language oriented programming'' meme. A strong focus on
domain specific
> languages built with dynamic languages, lots of business logic in a dynamic
> language, and a platform layer underneath built with a language like C#
that
> is closely aligned with the VM.
See also Steve Yegge''s recent (and quite lengthy) blog entry at
http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/06/rhinos-and-tigers.html

--
Curt Hagenlocher
curt at hagenlocher.org

Josh Charles wrote:
> 
> I have to agree with Mike here.  Ruby development with TextMate (a
> text editor only) works wonderfully, but I would be hesitant to
> develop C# applications in the same way.
> 
> On the other hand, one thing that will be really nice is to have a
> debugger that works easily, and at least similar to the one in Visual
> Studio.
----------------------------------
Majority of IronRuby developers will be using Ironruby for web designing 
purpose, and working with Asp.Net MVC with IronRuby, a good IDE like VS 
Express is a must.

For a plain Ruby development even "Scite" and "Netbeans 6.1"
are the
best choice around. Even NotePad can solve that problem, but its hardly 
used.

But when it comes to Asp.Net MVC with IronRuby, one cannot survive 
without a great IDE, thats sure.

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

2008/6/18 Rahil Kantharia <lists at
ruby-forum.com>:
> Majority of IronRuby developers will be using Ironruby for web designing
> purpose, and working with Asp.Net MVC with IronRuby, a good IDE like VS
> Express is a must.
>
> For a plain Ruby development even "Scite" and "Netbeans
6.1" are the
> best choice around. Even NotePad can solve that problem, but its hardly
> used.
>
> But when it comes to Asp.Net MVC with IronRuby, one cannot survive
> without a great IDE, thats sure.
What''s wrong with Vim?

(I am sincere.)

Ok I openly admit that I am not too familiar with so-called integrated
development environments. So sue me.

-- 
Seo Sanghyeon

This is a very interesting discussion.  I''d like to add a few points:

1. VB is still MSFTs most widely used programming language (as mentioned by
some seemingly knowledgeable MSFT guy on Hanselminutes podcast)
2. C# and VB will probably still out perform IronRuby when it is released
3. IMO, most .NET developers know very little about Ruby and even less about
IronRuby right now.  The impact of IronRuby will most likely have a direct
relationship to the impact of Silverlight.

  

-----Original Message-----
From: ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org
[mailto:ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Curt Hagenlocher
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:59 AM
To: ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
Subject: Re: [Ironruby-core] Wondering how many will go with C#, after
IronRuby arrives

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 6:55 AM, Mike Moore <blowmage at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> I believe the future will be similar to the whole ''polyglot
programming''
or
> ''language oriented programming'' meme. A strong focus on
domain specific
> languages built with dynamic languages, lots of business logic in a
dynamic
> language, and a platform layer underneath built with a language like C#
that
> is closely aligned with the VM.
See also Steve Yegge''s recent (and quite lengthy) blog entry at
http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/06/rhinos-and-tigers.html

--
Curt Hagenlocher
curt at hagenlocher.org
_______________________________________________
Ironruby-core mailing list
Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 6:58 AM, Rahil Kantharia <lists at ruby-forum.com>
wrote:
>
> MSFT created C#, just to attract Java community, but infact it did not
> happen.
> Java was scared of Ruby and hence jRuby appeared. MS waked up a bit
> later and now we have IronRuby.
If you start with C++ and remove all of its painful, unsafe and
rarely-used features, you''re going to end up with a language that
looks like Java.  That''s not to say that Java wasn''t an
influence on
C#, but the language was clearly aimed primarily at C++ programmers
already on a Microsoft platform.  Another way of looking at it is to
recognize that in 1999, Microsoft had two first-class development
environments -- VB6 and VC6.  VB.NET was the CLR "upgrade path" for
the VB6 programmers and C# served the same purpose for VC6.

As for "Java was scared of Ruby", I assume by Java that you mean Sun.
Sun didn''t start supporting JRuby until well after the project was
started by people in the community.  Well before that, there was
Jython -- an implementation of Python for the JVM.  The creator of
Jython was Jim Hugunin, who went on to create IronPython and work for
Microsoft.  And this was before Ruby''s fairly recent meteoric (and
largely Rails-driven) rise to prominence.  So, interest in dynamic
languages has been growing steadily over the last decade and it''s not
just some recent mad (and fear-based) scramble to support them.

Finally, I think you''ll find that -- at least in the short term --
most programmers don''t have a choice about the language they use;
it''s
dictated to them by their employer.

--
Curt Hagenlocher
curt at hagenlocher.org

Rahil Kantharia wrote:
> Josh Charles wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I have to agree with Mike here.  Ruby development with TextMate (a
>> text editor only) works wonderfully, but I would be hesitant to
>> develop C# applications in the same way.
>> 
>> On the other hand, one thing that will be really nice is to have a
>> debugger that works easily, and at least similar to the one in Visual
>> Studio.
> 
> ----------------------------------
> Majority of IronRuby developers will be using Ironruby for web designing 
> purpose, and working with Asp.Net MVC with IronRuby, a good IDE like VS 
> Express is a must.
> 
> For a plain Ruby development even "Scite" and "Netbeans
6.1" are the
> best choice around. Even NotePad can solve that problem, but its hardly 
> used.
> 
> But when it comes to Asp.Net MVC with IronRuby, one cannot survive 
> without a great IDE, thats sure.
There are aspects of Ruby that make IDE''s both far more complicated and
far more useful.  Consider working with ActiveRecord.  There''s no 
denying that it would be nice to have Intellisense-like autocompletion 
for your AR objects if, for example, you forgot the name of one of your 
fields.  (Sure you can keep a schema file open if you have 3 tables, but 
what if you have 50).  And is the method you are looking for a field in 
the table, a method in the class, or base class, or a method added by a 
module, or worse a method that was monkey-patched in.

I suppose you could keep a script/console running to query such things, 
but certainly its faster to have that information immediately in editor.

I''ve never worked on an IDE before, but the topic of how you implement 
Intellisense for Ruby has always interested me.  I imagine it must be 
100x harder to do it for Ruby than for C++ (or maybe just use 100x more 
processing power).  But I''m thinking that the DLR must make such things
much easier.  Is that the case?
-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Hi,

We are talking about pure IronRuby applications here. For Plain Ruby 
development we already have many options

The real fact is "Asp.Net MVC with IronRuby", needs a great IDE 
support,the same way Vb.Net and C# needs today.

Without IDE, it will take ages to create folders with MVC approach.

If MSFT and IronRuby team are really serious about their first Open 
Source Project, they should not neglect a great IDE.

It would be really sad to lose large amount of ruby developers moving 
away from .net without a good IDE support.

CLR + DLR with great .net framework is the best thing happened to 
us.MSFT should not kill this charm with a lack of good IDE.
-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 8:09 AM, Rahil Kantharia <lists at ruby-forum.com>
wrote:
> But when it comes to Asp.Net MVC with IronRuby, one cannot survive
> without a great IDE, thats sure.
>
I think you *need *an IDE like Visual Studio for writing ASP.NET MVC web
apps because ASP.NET MVC is a web framework written for C#. Even if you use
a different language like Python or Ruby. In the same vein, Ruby on Rails is
a web framework written for Ruby, and doesn''t *need *those IDEs to be
productive.
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Mike Moore wrote:
> 
> I think you *need *an IDE like Visual Studio for writing ASP.NET MVC web
> apps because ASP.NET MVC is a web framework written for C#. Even if you 
> use
> a different language like Python or Ruby. 
-------------------------
Hi Mike,

Just Curious, what makes you say that Asp.Net MVC is a framework written 
for C# only. I think its for all 4 languages working with .Net ( 
C#,Vb.Net, IronRuby and Ironpython and very soon F# as the fifth 
language )

Whats IronRuby community suppose to do, if VS 2008 does not support 
IronRuby and IronPython....?

Does MSFT / DLR Team, really think that VS2008 is a must for C# and 
Vb.Net only...?


-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

As much as I hate to, I would have to agree that IDE support for IronRuby
with other .NET applications is a necessity.  I''ve tried to do MVC
development in TextMate and I can say it''s very difficult.  Not from an
IntelliSense perspective, I can live without that, but building your code &
creating the web.config and other necessary files is made far more difficult
by not having IDE support.
Along those lines, I feel the need to mention that MS has already said they
are not going to be marketing IronRuby at all.  They will put it out there
and it will be up to us to market it.  It''s usage will depend on coming
up
with valid use cases for Ruby.  ASP.NET MVC with IR is a great example.
 However, companies that already have an investment in C# or VB will likely
stick with that.

-Joe

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Softmind Technology <lists at
ruby-forum.com>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> We are talking about pure IronRuby applications here. For Plain Ruby
> development we already have many options
>
> The real fact is "Asp.Net MVC with IronRuby", needs a great IDE
> support,the same way Vb.Net and C# needs today.
>
> Without IDE, it will take ages to create folders with MVC approach.
>
> If MSFT and IronRuby team are really serious about their first Open
> Source Project, they should not neglect a great IDE.
>
> It would be really sad to lose large amount of ruby developers moving
> away from .net without a good IDE support.
>
> CLR + DLR with great .net framework is the best thing happened to
> us.MSFT should not kill this charm with a lack of good IDE.
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Ironruby-core mailing list
> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>


-- 
joe fiorini
http://www.faithfulgeek.org
// freelancing & knowledge sharing
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Having used C# since it came out, which I still feel is simply a more
Microsoft-supported Java (the syntax is different but the flavor/approach is
right there) I find ruby very refreshing. I will still use C# when I need to
and am very proficient in it, but if IronRuby keeps the spirit of
metaprogramming alive in its implementation I think folks who take the time
to really learn it will adopt ruby in a heartbeat as their primary language.
There are always those who go kicking and screaming to a new
language/platform - I''m not talking about you :).

-Jayme

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Joe Fiorini <joe at faithfulgeek.org>
wrote:
> As much as I hate to, I would have to agree that IDE support for IronRuby
> with other .NET applications is a necessity.  I''ve tried to do MVC
> development in TextMate and I can say it''s very difficult.  Not
from an
> IntelliSense perspective, I can live without that, but building your code
&
> creating the web.config and other necessary files is made far more
difficult
> by not having IDE support.
> Along those lines, I feel the need to mention that MS has already said they
> are not going to be marketing IronRuby at all.  They will put it out there
> and it will be up to us to market it.  It''s usage will depend on
coming up
> with valid use cases for Ruby.  ASP.NET <http://asp.net/> MVC with IR
is a
> great example.  However, companies that already have an investment in C# or
> VB will likely stick with that.
>
> -Joe
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Softmind Technology <
> lists at ruby-forum.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> We are talking about pure IronRuby applications here. For Plain Ruby
>> development we already have many options
>>
>> The real fact is "Asp.Net MVC with IronRuby", needs a great
IDE
>> support,the same way Vb.Net and C# needs today.
>>
>> Without IDE, it will take ages to create folders with MVC approach.
>>
>> If MSFT and IronRuby team are really serious about their first Open
>> Source Project, they should not neglect a great IDE.
>>
>> It would be really sad to lose large amount of ruby developers moving
>> away from .net without a good IDE support.
>>
>> CLR + DLR with great .net framework is the best thing happened to
>> us.MSFT should not kill this charm with a lack of good IDE.
>>  --
>> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ironruby-core mailing list
>> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>>
>
>
>
> --
> joe fiorini
> http://www.faithfulgeek.org
> // freelancing & knowledge sharing
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ironruby-core mailing list
> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>
>
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Curtis Mitchell wrote:
> 3. IMO, most .NET developers know very little about Ruby and even less 
> about
> IronRuby right now.  
--------------------------------------------------------
Hi Curtis,

I totally agree with you. I have checked with many .Net developers and 
very few are aware of IronRuby. IronPython 2.0 has reached beta 2.0 
stage and yet its not promoted by DLR team.

I have observed that Microsoft is in no mood to promote IronRuby at all. 
There are hardly few blogs seen regarding IronRuby and whatever blogs i 
have seen are from IronRuby lovers and contributors.

Asp.Net team has ignored many requests of starting a section for 
IronRuby on Asp.Net Forums

On one hand they invite experts like Jim and John to work for Ironpython 
and IronRuby, and on the other hand they ignore/waste their efforts by 
not promoting it.

All i smell is something fishy in the case of DLR languages.

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Joe Fiorini wrote:
> Along those lines, I feel the need to mention that MS has already said 
> they
> are not going to be marketing IronRuby at all.  They will put it out 
> there
> and it will be up to us to market it. 
----------------------------
Hi Joe,

Very sad news indeed. I always had the same feeling about IronRuby being 
neglected badly by MSFT.

Can you kindly post that link here that says "MS shall not be marketing 
IronRuby at all."

Mr John Lam, What do you have to say here....?
I am not dragging you in this conversation, just hoping you can focus 
and clear few doubts about the future of IronRuby with MS.

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

Most corporate .NET developers live with their heads in the sand.
IronRuby/Python are for a niche set of higher-level and often multi-platform
developers, not your everyday "mort" which we find all too often.

These developers often use VS IDE as a crutch instead of understanding the
underlying libraries.  The .NET framework is huge so this is tough to do BUT
those who have been working with Ruby get used to the TextMate style of
coding and it works.  Once you are competant in the base Ruby libraries you
are very efficient using TextMate.

I am sure once Silverlight DLR and IronRuby is fully baked then we will see
MS promote it better but it will never be a C#, simply for the mort factor.

-Rob Bazinet

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Softmind Technology <lists at
ruby-forum.com>
wrote:
> Curtis Mitchell wrote:
>
> > 3. IMO, most .NET developers know very little about Ruby and even less
> > about
> > IronRuby right now.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Curtis,
>
> I totally agree with you. I have checked with many .Net developers and
> very few are aware of IronRuby. IronPython 2.0 has reached beta 2.0
> stage and yet its not promoted by DLR team.
>
> I have observed that Microsoft is in no mood to promote IronRuby at all.
> There are hardly few blogs seen regarding IronRuby and whatever blogs i
> have seen are from IronRuby lovers and contributors.
>
> Asp.Net team has ignored many requests of starting a section for
> IronRuby on Asp.Net Forums
>
> On one hand they invite experts like Jim and John to work for Ironpython
> and IronRuby, and on the other hand they ignore/waste their efforts by
> not promoting it.
>
> All i smell is something fishy in the case of DLR languages.
>
> --
> Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> _______________________________________________
> Ironruby-core mailing list
> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>


-- 
Rob Bazinet
InfoQ Ruby and .NET Editor
http://www.accidentaltechnologist.com
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>
> >
> > I have to agree with Mike here.  Ruby development with TextMate (a
> > text editor only) works wonderfully, but I would be hesitant to
> > develop C# applications in the same way.
>
It ain''t so shabby in "e" either (TextMate clone for Windows)
:)
>
>
> ----------------------------------
> Majority of IronRuby developers will be using Ironruby for web designing
> purpose, and working with Asp.Net MVC with IronRuby, a good IDE like VS
> Express is a must.

I don''t know about this, I see a BIG future in IronRuby for scripting
business logic written in other .NET languages.  Developing DSLs for
existing business logic that is already existing.

> As much as I hate to, I would have to agree that IDE support for IronRuby
> with other .NET applications is a necessity.  I''ve tried to do MVC
> development in TextMate and I can say it''s very difficult.  Not
from an
> IntelliSense perspective, I can live without that, but building your code
&
> creating the web.config and other necessary files is made far more
difficult
> by not having IDE support.
>
>
That''s what TextMate bundles are for!

As for IronRuby being ignored by MS... I''m not sure about that,
there''s been
alot of sexy Silverlight demos I''ve seen using IronRuby both by MSers
and
non MSers.  But I don''t think they''re really going to consider
pushing it
until it hits a 1.0 release,  IR still needs quite a bit of work.

-- 
Michael Letterle
[Polymath Prokrammer]
http://blog.prokrams.com
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I suppose from the MSFT perspective, the IronX projects are a shot at doing
something (mostly) community-driven.  In a sense, marketing IronRuby or
IronPython is a double-edge sword for MSFT.  On one hand, the languages are
bringing some great features to the .NET platform as a whole, but on the
other hand, learning them will also increase a developer''s ability (and
possibly likeliness) to jump from .NET to Matz Ruby or CPython.  When you
consider (my assumption) that Ruby and Python programmers aren''t as
spirited
about becoming .NET programmers, it''s easier to justify MSFT''s
reluctance to
market these projects.

Aside from that controversial argument I just invented, the success of these
projects really depend on us, the community.  

The Silverlight Machine will bring some adopters, but even those people will
read our blogs and forum posts before taking the leap from C#.




-----Original Message-----
From: ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org
[mailto:ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Softmind
Technology
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:10 AM
To: ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
Subject: Re: [Ironruby-core] Wondering how many will go with C#, after
IronRuby arrives

Curtis Mitchell wrote:
> 3. IMO, most .NET developers know very little about Ruby and even less 
> about
> IronRuby right now.  
--------------------------------------------------------
Hi Curtis,

I totally agree with you. I have checked with many .Net developers and 
very few are aware of IronRuby. IronPython 2.0 has reached beta 2.0 
stage and yet its not promoted by DLR team.

I have observed that Microsoft is in no mood to promote IronRuby at all. 
There are hardly few blogs seen regarding IronRuby and whatever blogs i 
have seen are from IronRuby lovers and contributors.

Asp.Net team has ignored many requests of starting a section for 
IronRuby on Asp.Net Forums

On one hand they invite experts like Jim and John to work for Ironpython 
and IronRuby, and on the other hand they ignore/waste their efforts by 
not promoting it.

All i smell is something fishy in the case of DLR languages.

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
_______________________________________________
Ironruby-core mailing list
Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core

From: ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org [mailto:ironruby-core-bounces at
rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Belcher
> I''ve never worked on an IDE before, but the topic of how you
> implement Intellisense for Ruby has always interested me.  I
> imagine it must be 100x harder to do it for Ruby than for C++
> (or maybe just use 100x more processing power).  But I''m
> thinking that the DLR must make such things much easier.  Is
> that the case?
This is really a language-specific parsing issue and is therefore outside the
realm of the DLR.

The most basic approach for Intellisense is to extract the information from the
ASTs, which I imagine is all that C# or VB have to do.  The next is to take the
ASTs and transform them by removing the "dangerous" parts.  Then, you
could actually run the simplified ASTs and introspect on the resulting object. 
This can be made increasingly "complete" by removing less and less
stuff -- at greater and greater risk of creating a program that won''t
run to completion or will have undesirable side effects.

To put this another way, I may need to run "initialize" in order for
my object to express the proper methods -- but the code in
"initialize" could well overwrite the OS for all I know.

Any class that depends on method_missing (in Ruby) or __getattr__ (in Python)
for method implementation is going to be problematic for Intellisense.  And
Rails'' ActiveRecord is one of the most pathological cases I can
imagine.

--
Curt Hagenlocher
curth at microsoft.com

We think that there''s more than enough value on the .NET platform to
retain developers.

Quite frankly, if you''re looking to write Ruby or Python code that
doesn''t take advantage of .NET features (such as cross-language
interoperability, Windows Forms, WPF or Silverlight) then you''re
probably better off using the original "C" implementation of those
languages -- and we have no interest in spending money trying to convince you
otherwise.

On the other hand, if you want to create a WPF app using Python, or embed a
Ruby-based DSL for business rules inside your C# application, or write a rich
internet application using either of these languages, then you''re the
developer that we''re working hard to satisfy.  And MRI and CPython
aren''t really alternatives in these scenarios.


The success of *any* programming language or environment depends largely on the
community that grows up around it.


-----Original Message-----
From: ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org [mailto:ironruby-core-bounces at
rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Curtis Mitchell
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:39 AM
To: ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
Subject: Re: [Ironruby-core] Wondering how many will go with C#, after IronRuby
arrives

I suppose from the MSFT perspective, the IronX projects are a shot at doing
something (mostly) community-driven.  In a sense, marketing IronRuby or
IronPython is a double-edge sword for MSFT.  On one hand, the languages are
bringing some great features to the .NET platform as a whole, but on the
other hand, learning them will also increase a developer''s ability (and
possibly likeliness) to jump from .NET to Matz Ruby or CPython.  When you
consider (my assumption) that Ruby and Python programmers aren''t as
spirited
about becoming .NET programmers, it''s easier to justify MSFT''s
reluctance to
market these projects.

Aside from that controversial argument I just invented, the success of these
projects really depend on us, the community.

The Silverlight Machine will bring some adopters, but even those people will
read our blogs and forum posts before taking the leap from C#.




-----Original Message-----
From: ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org
[mailto:ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Softmind
Technology
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:10 AM
To: ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
Subject: Re: [Ironruby-core] Wondering how many will go with C#, after
IronRuby arrives

Curtis Mitchell wrote:
> 3. IMO, most .NET developers know very little about Ruby and even less
> about
> IronRuby right now.
--------------------------------------------------------
Hi Curtis,

I totally agree with you. I have checked with many .Net developers and
very few are aware of IronRuby. IronPython 2.0 has reached beta 2.0
stage and yet its not promoted by DLR team.

I have observed that Microsoft is in no mood to promote IronRuby at all.
There are hardly few blogs seen regarding IronRuby and whatever blogs i
have seen are from IronRuby lovers and contributors.

Asp.Net team has ignored many requests of starting a section for
IronRuby on Asp.Net Forums

On one hand they invite experts like Jim and John to work for Ironpython
and IronRuby, and on the other hand they ignore/waste their efforts by
not promoting it.

All i smell is something fishy in the case of DLR languages.

--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
_______________________________________________
Ironruby-core mailing list
Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core

_______________________________________________
Ironruby-core mailing list
Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:58 AM, Curt Hagenlocher <curth at
microsoft.com>
wrote:
> We think that there''s more than enough value on the .NET platform
to retain
> developers.
>
> Quite frankly, if you''re looking to write Ruby or Python code that
doesn''t
> take advantage of .NET features (such as cross-language interoperability,
> Windows Forms, WPF or Silverlight) then you''re probably better off
using the
> original "C" implementation of those languages -- and we have no
interest in
> spending money trying to convince you otherwise.
>
> On the other hand, if you want to create a WPF app using Python, or embed a
> Ruby-based DSL for business rules inside your C# application, or write a
> rich internet application using either of these languages, then
you''re the
> developer that we''re working hard to satisfy.  And MRI and CPython
aren''t
> really alternatives in these scenarios.
>
Don''t forget the folks who for one reason or another are tied to
Windows as
a platform. My hope is that IronRuby is Ruby enough to replace MRI, so I
don''t have to mentally switch back and forth from implementation to
implementation when I have a need for .NET interop.

Also, I think there are alot of developers who desperately want to be able
to easily deploy Django or Rails apps on IIS7. Easily meaning minimal fuss
and not having to involve the sysadmin folks. I know this is not a stated
goal, but if you could demonstrate easy deployment and show a significant
performance improvement you/Microsoft may actually gain new users.

The success of *any* programming language or environment depends largely
on
> the community that grows up around it.
>
Agreed. I think some on this thread have been too harsh on Microsoft about
marketing or promoting IronRuby. I think that it is too early to start that
process. I''m surprised how uneasy some are feeling about
Microsoft''s plans
or lack of plans for their DLR-based languages.
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IronRuby is released as an Open Source project today, because we are interested
in attracting contributors to help us finish the implementation. We have gotten
some awesome contributions from folks in the community, and I thank you all for
your continued help and support.

IronRuby is not ready for folks to *use*; this is why we haven''t
released binaries yet. We have a lot of work to do to improve our working set,
our startup time, and our throughput. When we have acceptable quality around
those numbers, we will begin releasing binaries and marking them as
"Alphas", "Betas", "RCs" etc. At that time
I''ll talk more about plans for the future.

There are folks on this list who are interested in becoming users of the
language, as opposed to contributors. To you early adopters, I applaud your
courage :) You can help us out by answering questions on the forums, filing bug
reports, writing FAQs, maintaining the wiki, twittering, blogging etc. But
let''s turn our attention back to the work at hand - finishing IronRuby.
You can all help out in your own way.

Before posting, however, ask yourself - is what you''re posting helping
to move IronRuby forward in a constructive way?

Thanks,
-John
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Nice post John.  I could not agree more. This is true of IronRuby and any
open source project, we should be doing things to move forward not laterally
by complaining what is not there or what is not being done for you.

This is a great project and we all have the ability to contribute.
Microsoft has not opened up to outside contribution until recently and this
should be applauded and supported.

-Rob Bazinet

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:45 PM, John Lam (IRONRUBY) <jflam at
microsoft.com>
wrote:
>  IronRuby is released as an Open Source project today, because we are
> interested in attracting contributors to help us finish the implementation.
> We have gotten some awesome contributions from folks in the community, and
I
> thank you all for your continued help and support.
>
>
>
> IronRuby is not ready for folks to **use**; this is why we haven''t
> released binaries yet. We have a lot of work to do to improve our working
> set, our startup time, and our throughput. When we have acceptable quality
> around those numbers, we will begin releasing binaries and marking them as
> "Alphas", "Betas", "RCs" etc. At that time
I''ll talk more about plans for
> the future.
>
>
>
> There are folks on this list who are interested in becoming users of the
> language, as opposed to contributors. To you early adopters, I applaud your
> courage J You can help us out by answering questions on the forums, filing
> bug reports, writing FAQs, maintaining the wiki, twittering, blogging etc.
> But let''s turn our attention back to the work at hand ? finishing
IronRuby.
> You can all help out in your own way.
>
>
>
> Before posting, however, ask yourself ? is what you''re posting
helping to
> move IronRuby forward in a constructive way?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> -John
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ironruby-core mailing list
> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>
>

-- 
Rob Bazinet
InfoQ Ruby and .NET Editor
http://www.accidentaltechnologist.com
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John,

Just throwing this out there to get your take....

Do you think it''s time to add an IronRuby-users or an IronRuby-talk ?

Yes it''s not ready for prime time yet, but there are obviously alot of
people interested in just using it, perhaps an offical outlet for their
thoughts without cluttering up the core mailing list could be insightful...

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:45 PM, John Lam (IRONRUBY) <jflam at
microsoft.com>
wrote:
>  IronRuby is released as an Open Source project today, because we are
> interested in attracting contributors to help us finish the implementation.
> We have gotten some awesome contributions from folks in the community, and
I
> thank you all for your continued help and support.
>
>
>
> IronRuby is not ready for folks to **use**; this is why we haven''t
> released binaries yet. We have a lot of work to do to improve our working
> set, our startup time, and our throughput. When we have acceptable quality
> around those numbers, we will begin releasing binaries and marking them as
> "Alphas", "Betas", "RCs" etc. At that time
I''ll talk more about plans for
> the future.
>
>
>
> There are folks on this list who are interested in becoming users of the
> language, as opposed to contributors. To you early adopters, I applaud your
> courage J You can help us out by answering questions on the forums, filing
> bug reports, writing FAQs, maintaining the wiki, twittering, blogging etc.
> But let''s turn our attention back to the work at hand ? finishing
IronRuby.
> You can all help out in your own way.
>
>
>
> Before posting, however, ask yourself ? is what you''re posting
helping to
> move IronRuby forward in a constructive way?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> -John
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ironruby-core mailing list
> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>
>

-- 
Michael Letterle
[Polymath Prokrammer]
http://blog.prokrams.com
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>
> Agreed. I think some on this thread have been too harsh on Microsoft about
> marketing or promoting IronRuby. I think that it is too early to start that
> process. I''m surprised how uneasy some are feeling about
Microsoft''s plans
> or lack of plans for their DLR-based languages.

I completely agree that it''s way too early to be marketing IR. 
However, my
comment above came from what I heard from people "in the know" in the
Ruby
community, who said that Microsoft won''t be putting any marketing
dollars
into IR once it''s released.  The impetus needs to come from us, the
community.  Sure, there may be some documentation and samples of how to use
it with other MS products, but that''s different than marketing.

-Joe

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Mike Moore <blowmage at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:58 AM, Curt Hagenlocher <curth at
microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
>> We think that there''s more than enough value on the .NET
platform to
>> retain developers.
>>
>> Quite frankly, if you''re looking to write Ruby or Python code
that doesn''t
>> take advantage of .NET features (such as cross-language
interoperability,
>> Windows Forms, WPF or Silverlight) then you''re probably better
off using the
>> original "C" implementation of those languages -- and we have
no interest in
>> spending money trying to convince you otherwise.
>>
>> On the other hand, if you want to create a WPF app using Python, or
embed
>> a Ruby-based DSL for business rules inside your C# application, or
write a
>> rich internet application using either of these languages, then
you''re the
>> developer that we''re working hard to satisfy.  And MRI and
CPython aren''t
>> really alternatives in these scenarios.
>>
>
> Don''t forget the folks who for one reason or another are tied to
Windows as
> a platform. My hope is that IronRuby is Ruby enough to replace MRI, so I
> don''t have to mentally switch back and forth from implementation
to
> implementation when I have a need for .NET interop.
>
> Also, I think there are alot of developers who desperately want to be able
> to easily deploy Django or Rails apps on IIS7. Easily meaning minimal fuss
> and not having to involve the sysadmin folks. I know this is not a stated
> goal, but if you could demonstrate easy deployment and show a significant
> performance improvement you/Microsoft may actually gain new users.
>
> The success of *any* programming language or environment depends largely on
>> the community that grows up around it.
>>
>
> Agreed. I think some on this thread have been too harsh on Microsoft about
> marketing or promoting IronRuby. I think that it is too early to start that
> process. I''m surprised how uneasy some are feeling about
Microsoft''s plans
> or lack of plans for their DLR-based languages.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ironruby-core mailing list
> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>
>

-- 
joe fiorini
http://www.faithfulgeek.org
// freelancing & knowledge sharing
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