Vorbis - Nov 2002 - fitting lots of music into 10GB with Vorbis

Hi- just wondering, what would be the best quality rating to use to fit lots of
music into 10GB of HD space.
The audio quality has to be high enough for it to sound good when played through
PA systems (for when my college is stupid enough to forget to hire a DJ, or when
the realise the DJ they always hire can't use a mixing desk properly)
ranging from a functional PA system thats stuck in the theatre permantly, to a
seperate PA system that is very nice and is used for when we're stuck in the
middle of a field. The resulting filesize of the Vorbis file has to be low
enough to fit neatly onto my crappy 10GB HD (untill i can afford to buy a nice
new one).
I've attatched a playlist generated by Winamp listing the music collection
i've got. It fits into 8.41GB which excludes the few remaining MP3s, lyrics
files & midi files which take up 425MB.

The situation the music will be used in will be (through my Audigy EX nicely
provided by the Princes' Trust):

1) Where a low-cost (eg free) "dj" is required for college discos
& other college events.
2) In a middle of a field through at the other college site when the performing
arts department puts on a show & they need a break
3) For my own personal pleasure :P

So basically, me needs help in resizing the music collection to a point where
the filesize is low enough to fit more music into, but where the quality is high
enough to be played at live gigs, and messed around with digitally without
causing hair-tearing artefacts, so any suggestion for config specs to encode CDs
directly to Vorbis files ? (I will most likely be using CDex unless someone has
a better idea)

PS- where can i get my hands on a windows version of that Huffman tool to
further reduce the file size

<p>--- >8 ----
List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to
'vorbis-request@xiph.org'
containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No subject is
needed.
Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.

forgot the playlist

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis/attachments/20021101/d829e520/Ogg_Vorbis_collection_8.41GB___max_quality__quality_10_-0001.htm

I'm not too sure if this is something that you can really get a lot of
direct help with, looking at the playlist (from a few I recognize) it
seems the music is fairly far ranged in style, and that means for any
given stetting Vorbis will compress quite differently from one
file/album to the next... Given the VBR nature of it, I use 6.22 in CDex
(not that I'd know if that is acceptable on a high end system) but my
albums will range from 50~MB to 100~MB just depending on the kind of
music I rip off the CD.  If thats the case perhaps you should encode a
few random albums (I find things like guitar/drum/vocal are harder to
encode than say dance music based on a lot of electronic samples), see
how they sound on the system and if it's good enough, encode the more
"complex" albums first then drop the quality a bit for the remaining
CD's that you think should fair better on the codec.
Sorry if that sounds weird but it is how I do such things! 

<p>n Fri, 2002-11-01 at 20:14, Martin Blackwell
wrote:
> Hi- just wondering, what would be the best quality rating to use to fit
lots of music into 10GB of HD space.
> The audio quality has to be high enough for it to sound good when played
through PA systems (for when my college is stupid enough to forget to hire a DJ,
or when the realise the DJ they always hire can't use a mixing desk
properly) ranging from a functional PA system thats stuck in the theatre
permantly, to a seperate PA system that is very nice and is used for when
we're stuck in the middle of a field. The resulting filesize of the Vorbis
file has to be low enough to fit neatly onto my crappy 10GB HD (untill i can
afford to buy a nice new one).
> I've attatched a playlist generated by Winamp listing the music
collection i've got. It fits into 8.41GB which excludes the few remaining
MP3s, lyrics files & midi files which take up 425MB.
> 
> The situation the music will be used in will be (through my Audigy EX
nicely provided by the Princes' Trust):
> 
> 1) Where a low-cost (eg free) "dj" is required for college discos
& other college events.
> 2) In a middle of a field through at the other college site when the
performing arts department puts on a show & they need a break
> 3) For my own personal pleasure :P
> 
> So basically, me needs help in resizing the music collection to a point
where the filesize is low enough to fit more music into, but where the quality
is high enough to be played at live gigs, and messed around with digitally
without causing hair-tearing artefacts, so any suggestion for config specs to
encode CDs directly to Vorbis files ? (I will most likely be using CDex unless
someone has a better idea)
> 
> PS- where can i get my hands on a windows version of that Huffman tool to
further reduce the file size
<p>--- >8 ----
List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to
'vorbis-request@xiph.org'
containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No subject is
needed.
Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.

The quality level of 5.0 (I use OggDropXPd) to encode seems to work well
for "semi-casual" playback... your best bet is to take a few of your
songs, encode them at different levels, and try 'em out yourself. IMO,
5.0 is plenty good enough - equates to about a 160kb rate, I think.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-vorbis@xiph.org [mailto:owner-vorbis@xiph.org] On Behalf Of
Martin Blackwell
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 1:14 PM
To: vorbis@xiph.org
Subject: [vorbis] fitting lots of music into 10GB with Vorbis

<p>Hi- just wondering, what would be the best quality rating to use to fit
lots of music into 10GB of HD space.
The audio quality has to be high enough for it to sound good when played
through PA systems (for when my college is stupid enough to forget to
hire a DJ, or when the realise the DJ they always hire can't use a
mixing desk properly) ranging from a functional PA system thats stuck in
the theatre permantly, to a seperate PA system that is very nice and is
used for when we're stuck in the middle of a field. The resulting
filesize of the Vorbis file has to be low enough to fit neatly onto my
crappy 10GB HD (untill i can afford to buy a nice new one).
I've attatched a playlist generated by Winamp listing the music
collection i've got. It fits into 8.41GB which excludes the few
remaining MP3s, lyrics files & midi files which take up 425MB.
 
The situation the music will be used in will be (through my Audigy EX
nicely provided by the Princes' Trust):
 
1) Where a low-cost (eg free) "dj" is required for college discos
&
other college events.
2) In a middle of a field through at the other college site when the
performing arts department puts on a show & they need a break
3) For my own personal pleasure :P
 
So basically, me needs help in resizing the music collection to a point
where the filesize is low enough to fit more music into, but where the
quality is high enough to be played at live gigs, and messed around with
digitally without causing hair-tearing artefacts, so any suggestion for
config specs to encode CDs directly to Vorbis files ? (I will most
likely be using CDex unless someone has a better idea)
 
PS- where can i get my hands on a windows version of that Huffman tool
to further reduce the file size

<p><p><p>--- >8 ----
List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to
'vorbis-request@xiph.org'
containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No subject is
needed.
Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.

Hey Martin,

I thought, let's use maths! :-)
At the top of your playlist, there's written:

"Playlist length: 55 hours 24 minutes 31 seconds"

Let's convert that into minutes at first, which gives us 55*60+25=3325
minutes.
Now, we should convert that again, this time into seconds: 3325*60=199500 
seconds.

Okay, now let's take a look at your disk size. Your crappy disk (that were
your
words ;)) is about 10 GB large. Let's say Windows and some other programs
will
cost you approx. 800 megs of space. That means 9200 megs are left over for 
audio. We should convert that into bits. Bits? Yeah, bits! Here we go: 9200*
1000000=9200000000 bytes. We'll need to multiply that by 8 to get the amount
of bits available on your disk, so 9200000000*8=73600000000.

So, for 199500 seconds of sound, you'll have 73600000000 bits available. So 
how many bits would you have available for one second? Let's see: 
73600000000/199500= approx. 368922 bits per second.  Now we'll convert 
that into kilobits, so divided by 1000, we'll get the end value of 368,922.

Theoratically speaking, if you would use that bitrate, all your audio should fit
on
your harddrive perfectly. However, Vorbis uses VBR, so you can't really stay
very close around that bitrate. Therefore, I think, your average should be under
this value. 

A value of 0.80 in the Vorbis codec will provide you with a nominal bitrate of 
256 kbit, and the avarage bitrate perhaps approaching or even exeeding the 300 
kbit boundary. However, you'll defenitely stay under the 368 kbit.

Since Vorbis usually sounds a lot better than mp3, you shouldn't be worried 
about ogg-files with a bitrate above 250 kbit. It should work very well with
your
PA set. Here, in Dutch broadcasting, we use 256 kbit MPEG Layer 2 as audio 
compression method, so your ogg-files will sound perfectly fine. :-)

I hope I've helped you out here Martin. Let me know if this was any usable!

<p><p>Regards,

Rachid.nl

<p>--- >8 ----
List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to
'vorbis-request@xiph.org'
containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No subject is
needed.
Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.

Unless your PA systems are better than anything else I've heard, -q1
(about 80k/s in stereo) would probably be just about good enough!  Try
it...  of course, less compression sounds better, but Ogg doesn't seem
to generate the same annoying artifacts as MP3.  I just notice a
slight lack of clarity, rather than offensive distortion (for
reference, mp3s at 128k/s horrify me, and 160 is still annoying).

As always, the only real answer with audio is "try it and decide for
yourself".

Good luck!
-Ben


-- 
bwpearre@alumni.princeton.edu                 http://hebb.mit.edu/~ben


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: part
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 233 bytes
Desc: not available
Url :
http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis/attachments/20021101/9029d93e/part-0001.pgp

> Martin Blackwell wrote:
> 
Don't send html mail to people that didn't ask for it.  This is a
mailing
list, so there's lots of people that didn't ask for it.  So don't do
it again,
please.  That being said...
> Hi- just wondering, what would be the best quality rating to use to fit
lots
> of music into 10GB of HD space.
You can't.  Unless with "lots" you mean "some".
> The audio quality has to be high enough for it to sound good when played
> through PA systems (for when my college is stupid enough to forget to hire
a
> DJ, or when the realise the DJ they always hire can't use a mixing desk
> properly) ranging from a functional PA system thats stuck in the theatre
> permantly, to a seperate PA system that is very nice and is used for when
> we're stuck in the middle of a field. The resulting filesize of the
Vorbis
> file has to be low enough to fit neatly onto my crappy 10GB HD (untill i
can
> afford to buy a nice new one).
You'll need -q6 or maybe a little higher to get indistinguishable-from-the-
original playback on a high-end or middle-end PA system.

If you need higher compression due to space constraints, use higher
compression.  -q4 should by all means still sound good.  Most people
wouldn't hear the difference at -q0 or -q1, anyway.
> I've attatched a playlist generated by Winamp listing the music
collection
> i've got.
No you didn't.
> PS- where can i get my hands on a windows version of that Huffman tool to
> further reduce the file size
You'll have to compile it yourself.  No distribution of it is allowed.

<p>Segher

<p>--- >8 ----
List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to
'vorbis-request@xiph.org'
containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No subject is
needed.
Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.

> From: Segher Boessenkool [mailto:segher@koffie.nl]
> it's not reencoding.  The problem with peeling isn't the 
> non-availability of
> a (somewhat) good peeler -- it's the non-availability of an 
> encoder that
> writes better (than libvorbis-1.0) peelable streams.
This statement seems to imply that a peeler is available.  Where is it?

Regards,
Owen
--- >8 ----
List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to
'vorbis-request@xiph.org'
containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No subject is
needed.
Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.

Rehuff is not a peeler.

Or is it?

<p>> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Blackwell [mailto:djdij@handbags.freeserve.co.uk]
> Sent: Tuesday, 05 November, 2002 00:21
> To: vorbis@xiph.org
> Subject: Re: [vorbis] fitting lots of music into 10GB with Vorbis
> 
> 
> > From: Segher Boessenkool [mailto:segher@koffie.nl]
> > it's not reencoding.  The problem with peeling isn't the 
> > non-availability of
> > a (somewhat) good peeler -- it's the non-availability of an 
> > encoder that
> > writes better (than libvorbis-1.0) peelable streams.
> 
> This statement seems to imply that a peeler is available.  
> Where is it?
> 
> Regards,
> Owen
> 
> http://www.xiph.org/archives/vorbis-dev/200101/0340.html
> 
> i'm trying to download it at the moment
> 
> --- >8 ----
> List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
> Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
> To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 
> 'vorbis-request@xiph.org'
> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No 
> subject is needed.
> Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
> 
> 
--- >8 ----
List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to
'vorbis-request@xiph.org'
containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No subject is
needed.
Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.

So where's the peeler?  :-)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Moritz Grimm [mailto:gtgbr@gmx.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, 05 November, 2002 08:22
> To: vorbis@xiph.org
> Subject: Re: [vorbis] fitting lots of music into 10GB with Vorbis
> 
> 
> Owen Emry wrote:
> > Rehuff is not a peeler.
> 
> Correct.
> 
> 
> Moritz
> --- >8 ----
> List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
> Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
> To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 
> 'vorbis-request@xiph.org'
> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No 
> subject is needed.
> Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
> 
> 
--- >8 ----
List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to
'vorbis-request@xiph.org'
containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No subject is
needed.
Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.

Sounds like "non-availability of a (somewhat) good peeler" might be
part of the problem after all.  Or perhaps not all of us agree on the definition
of "available".  :-)

Regards,
Owen
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Smith [mailto:msmith@xiph.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, 05 November, 2002 09:46
> To: vorbis@xiph.org
> Subject: RE: [vorbis] fitting lots of music into 10GB with Vorbis
> 
> 
> At 08:29 AM 5/11/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >So where's the peeler?  :-)
> 
> 
> There's one that at least a few people have called 
> 'aardappelschilmesje', but it doesn't have a license
> allowed redistribution, so I can't just pass a copy
> along. You could ask Segher for a copy though.
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> --- >8 ----
> List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
> Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
> To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 
> 'vorbis-request@xiph.org'
> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No 
> subject is needed.
> Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
> 
> 
--- >8 ----
List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to
'vorbis-request@xiph.org'
containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No subject is
needed.
Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.