Vorbis - Mar 2001 - [Fwd: Re: File formats (RE: MP4 Player Available for Download)]

I'm forwarding this to the vorbis list FYI.
I'll also forward the reply.

Marshall

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: File formats (RE: MP4 Player Available for Download)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:29:20 -0500
From: Marshall Eubanks <tme@21rst-century.com>
Reply-To: tme@21rst-century.com
Organization: Multicast Technologies
To: philippe.gentric@philips.com
CC: rem-conf@es.net
References: <0056900016627917000002L072*@MHS>

philippe.gentric@philips.com wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: robla@real.com [mailto:robla@real.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 18:55
> > To: hari@FLAVORSOFTWARE.com; BNowicki@Omneon.com
> > Cc: rem-conf@es.net
> > Subject: File formats (RE: MP4 Player Available for Download)
> >
> >
> >
> > At 11:54 AM 3/13/01 -0800, Bill Nowicki wrote:
> > >We just tried the obvious experiment.
> > >
> > >The ".mp4" files on the "Flavor" site do not
play with the
> > >Philips player, and the Philips ".mp4" files do not play
with
> > >the Flavor player. Sounds like a litle inter-operability
> > >testing might have been in order before calling them the same
> > >name!
> > >
> > >(and of course file format standards are outside the charter
> > >of IETF, but are still useful)
> >
> > Not that I'm disagreeing with you here, but an honest question for
> > you:  whose charter includes specifying file formats?  Clearly,
ISO/MPEG
> > have taken it on, but they've also created a situation where I
think
> > genuine interoperability is out of the question for anyone who either
> > doesn't have a patent licensing agreement from 30 different
companies, or
> > who chooses to ignore the issue.
> >
>
> Wow ?
>
> Exactly like for MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 there is a patent pool system
> to make MPEG-4 licensing really easy
> ( see http://www.mpegla.com and http://www.m4if.org).
>
> Now I am always surprised to see how naive people
> seem to be about patent issues.
>
> (I am actually certain that many are not so naive ;-)
>
> The truth is that research on these subjects
> as been fueled by large corporations for more than
> 30 years. Hundreds of millions have been spent,
> resulting in *thousands* of patents, and
> rocketing up.
>
> The technology coverage of this miriad of patents
> is such and some of these patents are so "basic" i.e.
> tackle so fundamental issues
> (for example go to www.mpegla.com for the
> short (but long !) list of "essential" patents
> which affect DCT, VLC, quantization,
> motion compensation, etc)
> that there is *extrememely little chance*
> that *any* technology/product related to
> A/V is not covered by *some* patent.
>
> In this context "unencumbered" is *meaningless*,
> i.e. seeking that is a very difficult winding road
> (around patents) and therefore actually
> very probably a lost-in-advance battle.
>
> Instead using well characterized
> (standard) technologies such as MPEG-4
> with open, cheap, clear, safe and simple licensing
> is the way to go.
>
Hello Philippe;

I hate to disagree with you here, but the current situation around MPEG 1/2
Layer 3
streaming licenses indicates that the MPEG process does not lead to
"cheap, clear, safe and simple licensing". I don't know what this
license will be, what the
terms will be, whether it will be imposed at all or whether it will be changed
at whim
in another year or two.

Can you _guarantee_ that MPEG-4 licensing will be better ? Can anyone ?

                                 Regards
                                 Marshall Eubanks
>
> Amen,
>
> Philippe Gentric
> Software Architect
> PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS
> Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions
> Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips
> B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes
> 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France
> Phone  :   33 (0)1 45 10 68 12
> Fax    :   33 (0)1 45 10 69 60
> philippe.gentric@philips.com
> Check our web site at: www.mpeg-4player.com
T.M. Eubanks
Multicast Technologies, Inc
10301 Democracy Lane, Suite 410
Fairfax, Virginia 22030
Phone : 703-293-9624
Fax     : 703-293-9609
e-mail : tme@on-the-i.com     tme@multicasttech.com

http://www.on-the-i.com http://www.buzzwaves.com

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From: "Marshall Eubanks" <tme@21rst-century.com>
> > Exactly like for MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 there is a patent pool system
> > to make MPEG-4 licensing really easy
> > ( see http://www.mpegla.com and http://www.m4if.org).
Hmmm? MPEG-4 is already at version 3, and even now there isnt even a
comprehensive pool for the entire spec if Im to believe m4if's site...
moving
along nicely. The fact of the matter is that MPEG's method of making
standards
precludes any certainty of _anyone at all_ being able to use one.

Is it a coincedence that the only one to ship "MPEG-4"  till recently
was m$? Or
was it by chance because noone in their right mind would go after them in court
in a heavy handed way? (whereas a small outfit being as bold would have had
their ass handed to them on a plate)

Marco

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