On 02/01/2015 10:27 AM, Ady via Syslinux wrote:> FWIW (this info can be found elsewhere too): _ "SYSLINUX" refers the > install the bootloader files on the adequate boot area (see ...Ok thanks, this also would be good information 'up front'. I can only comment on how it could be better for a beginner, not in what is actually available if you know where to look.> http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/Install ).I never found that before, I see it's linked under 'Permanent link' which isn't much of a clue.>> The "active" partition is a part of how a (MBR) partition table >> (usually) works together with the MBR's boot code. There is (enough) >> information about such issues in the official Syslinux wiki and >> elsewhere (Distros' wiki pages, wikipedia, blogs, forums...). The >> Syslinux wiki also includes information about several alternative boot >> code for the MBR.Sure. It's just that on HHD LILO doesn't need it at all so I forgot all about it. As I said, perhaps there could be a warning, just for guys like me who forgot. Or maybe we should just wake up ;-)> >> The Simple Menu System is not an exclusive part of the EXTLINUX >> bootloader (or exclusive to any one Syslinux variant), so it would not >> be the adequate place for such info. Internal links, wiki categories >> and the "search" feature in the official Syslinux wiki are available, >> together with official documentation published in several formats (the >> latter is not always up-to-date).Ok, but surely one sentence to tell us to include 'libutil.c32'? Or some link to more information? I had no idea this was something external.> > Syslinux configuration is based on LABELs, so there is a slight > difference when comparing to LILO.Yes, the double meaning of the word is confusing with LILO too.> Please keep in mind that as of version 6.03, SYSLINUX can only find > files (e.g. kernel, initrd...) located in the same volume where the > bootloader is installed.Yes, LILO is more powerful in that department.> > There are more than 100 pages in the wiki, in addition to the official > documents included in the official archives (in kernel.org).And thanks for the extra links. I will read it all eventually.
> On 02/01/2015 10:27 AM, Ady via Syslinux wrote: > > FWIW (this info can be found elsewhere too): _ "SYSLINUX" refers the > > install the bootloader files on the adequate boot area (see ... > > Ok thanks, this also would be good information 'up front'. I can only > comment on how it could be better for a beginner, not in what is > actually available if you know where to look. > > > http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php/Install ). > > I never found that before, I see it's linked under 'Permanent link' > which isn't much of a clue.No, a "permanent link" is a way of linking to a specific _version_ of a wiki page. Let's not go off-topic. For a list of all the pages in the wiki, click on "Special pages" and then on "All pages".> >> The "active" partition is a part of how a (MBR) partition table > >> (usually) works together with the MBR's boot code. There is (enough) > >> information about such issues in the official Syslinux wiki and > >> elsewhere (Distros' wiki pages, wikipedia, blogs, forums...). The > >> Syslinux wiki also includes information about several alternative boot > >> code for the MBR. > > Sure. It's just that on HHD LILO doesn't need it at all so I forgot all > about it. As I said, perhaps there could be a warning, just for guys > like me who forgot. Or maybe we should just wake up ;-)As I said, the info is in the wiki, among other places. We could be adding information for each-and-every "boot" topic, even those subjects that are "standards" or "common practices" while they are not specific to Syslinux. But there is no point on repeating information that is posted elsewhere (such as in Wikipedia, among others), except for proper Syslinux matters (or course). The links are there, and this Syslinux Mailing List should be helpful too. Adding too much information (all together) would be counterproductive and harder to maintain. New users would probably be scared, thinking that it is more complex than it really is. Instead, there are pages for each subject, and users can find the relevant info in each page, building on prior, more basic items. I have seen enough users asking questions about things that are "right there up front" for someone to find them, but they don't even bother to perform the most minimal search. Many (most?) users don't even read documentation, no matter how (in)complete it could be. And then we have "non-new" users searching for some particular information. If you have too much info together, it makes it more difficult for specific details to be found. As an example, instead of the whole SYSLINUX page, you could read (for instance): 1_ Install 2_ Config 3_ Library_modules 4_ CLI 5_ Special_keys 6_ Menu ... And there is more. Some users do not need CLI, while others want to learn about special keyboard combinations...> > > >> The Simple Menu System is not an exclusive part of the EXTLINUX > >> bootloader (or exclusive to any one Syslinux variant), so it would not > >> be the adequate place for such info. Internal links, wiki categories > >> and the "search" feature in the official Syslinux wiki are available, > >> together with official documentation published in several formats (the > >> latter is not always up-to-date). > > Ok, but surely one sentence to tell us to include 'libutil.c32'? Or some > link to more information? I had no idea this was something external.There is simply no way to simultaneously satisfy every type of user / reader :). In the particular case of lib*.c32 files, I hope you find the "Library modules" wiki page user-friendly and complete enough so to answer to such matters.> > > > Syslinux configuration is based on LABELs, so there is a slight > > difference when comparing to LILO. > > Yes, the double meaning of the word is confusing with LILO too. > > Please keep in mind that as of version 6.03, SYSLINUX can only find > > files (e.g. kernel, initrd...) located in the same volume where the > > bootloader is installed. > > Yes, LILO is more powerful in that department. > > > > There are more than 100 pages in the wiki, in addition to the official > > documents included in the official archives (in kernel.org). > > And thanks for the extra links. I will read it all eventually.I think reading the wiki should answer to most of these questions. I must say that when a user has a practical specific issue, I would expect the information in the wiki to be useful. Trying to learn "All-things-Syslinux" without specific cases / goals / purposes would make it harder, IMHO. Additionally, reading the Syslinux-related configuration files included in distros' ISO images should also help users build some knowledge and understanding about Syslinux directives. All this is not to say that there are no things to improve in the wiki; we know there are. I certainly appreciate the feedback. Please keep it coming. Thank you and Regards, Ady.> > _______________________________________________ > Syslinux mailing list > Submissions to Syslinux at zytor.com > Unsubscribe or set options at: > http://www.zytor.com/mailman/listinfo/syslinux >
On 02/01/2015 01:43 PM, Ady via Syslinux wrote:> No, a "permanent link" is a way of linking to a specific _version_ of > a wiki page. Let's not go off-topic. For a list of all the pages in > the wiki, click on "Special pages" and then on "All pages".Well, that's just where *I* found it for better or worse.> > As I said, the info is in the wiki, among other places.I know, I was just suggesting a warning message. Nevermind. I can only report my experience, if you feel your docs are fine as they are, then of course nothing will change. > There is simply no way to simultaneously satisfy every type of user / reader :). In the particular case of lib*.c32 files, I hope you find the "Library modules" wiki page user-friendly and complete enough so to answer to such matters. No, of course not. Maybe no mention of libutil.c32 is proper. I was confusing for me, but perhaps for other people it was no problem. > I think reading the wiki should answer to most of these questions. I must say that when a user has a practical specific issue, I would expect the information in the wiki to be useful. Trying to learn "All-things-Syslinux" without specific cases / goals / purposes would make it harder, IMHO. Yeah, that's why I thought more complete info for each variation would be good. I don't report that the information is not there, only that it might have been made more obvious. > Additionally, reading the Syslinux-related configuration files included in distros' ISO images should also help users build some knowledge and understanding about Syslinux directives. All this is not to say that there are no things to improve in the wiki; we know there are. I certainly appreciate the feedback. Please keep it coming. Ok, glad to hear it, but alas, I already know something, so my virgin experience is gone forever. I'm like a lab rat who has already run the maze once. I find most docs in the Linux world are written by experts for experts. Me, I think docs should be written for the benefit of the people who need the information, not for those who already know. I'm one specimen of a guy who needed to know, that's all. The next guy might report something quite different.
Hi, As someone who just recently came to the Syslinux project, with a different agenda but still a Syslinux noob maybe I can add my perspective. The Doc/Wiki makes perfect sense from a DEVELOPERS point of view, but I think the point here is maybe from a USERS point of view not so much. Even approaching syslinux with the purpose of building a custom .c32 module and leveraging the core syslinux boot infrastructure: I didn't get/see the VARIANT/variant distinction. When I read that it was an "of course" moment but I do think that it could be emphasized to help other noobs. Yes I see it now on the wiki home page but I initially thought that was an artifact of some wiki page naming convention. I too was bit by the library code issue but saw it as a lack of knowledge on my part. That's not how some (most?) USERS would see it though. I really don't know what to say about the active partition issue, That is how most boot loaders work and you will run into the issue with just about any other boot loader. Finally, if LILO is going EOS at the end of the year it might not be a bad idea to create a migrating from LILO page and featuring it prominently on the wiki home page. I'm not suggesting a huge HOWTO may be just a simple here are the basic differences we know about, the VARIANT/variant convention, modules/libraries are located in <bios|efi32|efi64>/com32/modulename, most (all?) com32 modules will require the library code and if you're booting from a dos fs use syslinux, if you're booting from a Linux fs use extlinux, etc. ---------- Mike