llvm dev - Jun 2021 - [cfe-dev] Mailing List Status Update

> Well, it's not surprising that people who use Discord don't propose
the use of IRC (and vice versa), but this doesn't make the community less
fractured.
No I am not surprised about that - but the original message I replied
to made it seem like there was huge confusion and people where sent
back and forth between IRC and discord and that was what I wanted to
point out is not really happening.
> The main objective of the list is to discuss the project, long and hard
issues, and both old and new people can use mailing lists with pretty much any
mail client out there.
>
> If the argument to move to Discourse is because it's better for long
and hard discussions for the majority of the community, then that's a clear
signal.
I think this is important as well and from my point of view Discourse
is much better for long discussions:

* Code formatting is easy and much better than in any email
integration I have seen.
* Threading is more obvious and easier to follow
* No problems with "top posting" and replying to a single person
instead of the full list.
* Moderation tools were already touched on - but since I don't
moderate the mailing list I don't want to comment on it too much.
> If it's just because it's where all the cool kids are these days,
then I think we're looking for the wrong goals.
>
> 5 years ago, all cool kids (*) were using Slack, now they're using
Discourse / Discord, who knows where they'll all be in 5 years time?
>
> I don't think popularity should be a factor in choosing a new tool, or
we'll be eternally chasing doomed platforms.
I 100% agree, but we also shouldn't turn down a better/more accessible
alternative just because of inertia either.

I am not making a cool kids argument here, I can't in fact claim to be
a cool kid since I still program in C++.

-- Tobias

On Thu, 24 Jun 2021 at 07:29, Tobias Hieta <tobias at plexapp.com> wrote:
> * Code formatting is easy and much better than in any email
> integration I have seen.
>
That depends on the client, but yes, it's more consistent, and all other
clients will see the same thing.

* Threading is more obvious and easier to follow
>
I disagree. Threading on a proper email client, when the headers aren't
destroyed and people don't top-post, is still the best by far.

This rules out GMail and other web clients, which all suck for threading.
It also rules out Outlook, whatever version, that still doesn't know what a
thread is.

But like everything else with email, it requires people to craft messages
and use specific clients that formats right and doesn't destroy meta
information.

> * No problems with "top posting" and replying to a single person
> instead of the full list.
>
Yup, consistency.

> * Moderation tools were already touched on - but since I don't
> moderate the mailing list I don't want to comment on it too much.
>
Many email moderators have said they don't think moderation is a problem in
this thread.

It's possible that the people who think moderation is easier in a web
platform are the people that prefer the web platform for other reasons.

In the end, I think consistency (which is objective) is the main benefit of
a web platform, not quality (which is subjective).
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On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 2:29 AM Tobias Hieta via llvm-dev
<llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> > Well, it's not surprising that people who use Discord don't
propose the use of IRC (and vice versa), but this doesn't make the community
less fractured.
>
> No I am not surprised about that - but the original message I replied
> to made it seem like there was huge confusion and people where sent
> back and forth between IRC and discord and that was what I wanted to
> point out is not really happening.
"is not really happening" -- I'm on IRC every day as a moderator
and
I'd say this happens on the IRC side of things at least once or twice
a week. Perhaps you meant to say it's not really happening on Discord?

I think this could be a demonstration that the culture of the
community is being impacted by the fracturing. When people come to
IRC, moderators and other users will point out that discord and the
mailing lists are places where someone can also attempt to get an
answer if they don't find it on IRC. (Telling users to ask on the
mailing lists if no one has an answer on IRC has been the status quo
since I joined the community, so this isn't a new practice.) Users
respond by saying thanks and often following that advice. It sounds
like on Discord, users who don't find an answer to their question
maybe aren't being told about the other options? If so, this is a
demonstration of *why* I'm concerned about further fracturing the
community.

~Aaron
> > The main objective of the list is to discuss the project, long and
hard issues, and both old and new people can use mailing lists with pretty much
any mail client out there.
> >
> > If the argument to move to Discourse is because it's better for
long and hard discussions for the majority of the community, then that's a
clear signal.
>
> I think this is important as well and from my point of view Discourse
> is much better for long discussions:
>
> * Code formatting is easy and much better than in any email
> integration I have seen.
> * Threading is more obvious and easier to follow
> * No problems with "top posting" and replying to a single person
> instead of the full list.
> * Moderation tools were already touched on - but since I don't
> moderate the mailing list I don't want to comment on it too much.
>
> > If it's just because it's where all the cool kids are these
days, then I think we're looking for the wrong goals.
> >
> > 5 years ago, all cool kids (*) were using Slack, now they're using
Discourse / Discord, who knows where they'll all be in 5 years time?
> >
> > I don't think popularity should be a factor in choosing a new
tool, or we'll be eternally chasing doomed platforms.
>
> I 100% agree, but we also shouldn't turn down a better/more accessible
> alternative just because of inertia either.
>
> I am not making a cool kids argument here, I can't in fact claim to be
> a cool kid since I still program in C++.
>
> -- Tobias
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