David Blaikie via llvm-dev
2021-Jun-15 17:41 UTC
[llvm-dev] [cfe-dev] Mailing List Status Update
On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 9:50 AM Matt P. Dziubinski <matdzb at gmail.com> wrote:> On 6/15/2021 18:29, David Blaikie wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 7:40 AM Matt P. Dziubinski via llvm-dev > > <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote: > > > > On 6/15/2021 12:58, Aaron Ballman via llvm-dev wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 5:41 PM James Y Knight via cfe-dev > > > <cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote: > > >> > > >> On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 6:19 PM James Y Knight > > <jyknight at google.com <mailto:jyknight at google.com>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> I've just tried out discourse for the first time. It is not > > clear to me how to use it to replace mailing lists. It has a setting > > "mailing list mode", which sounds like the right thing -- sending > > all messages via email. Except that option is global -- all messages > > in all categories on the llvm discourse instance. Which definitely > > isn't what I want at all. I don't want to subscribe to MLIR, for > > example. > > >> > > >> > > >> FWIW, it would seem that one secret trick here is to NOT check > > "mailing list mode" -- that option is mostly there to confuse you, I > > guess. > > >> > > >>> In general, I'd say I'm pretty uncomfortable with switching > > from a mailing list to discourse. Discourse seems entirely > > reasonable to use for end-user-facing forums, but I'm rather > > unconvinced about its suitability as a dev-list replacement. Other > > communities (e.g. python) seem to have a split, still: mailing lists > > for dev-lists, and discourse for end-user-facing forums. > > >>> > > >>> I'd also note that Mailman3 provides a lot more features than > > what we're used to with mailman2, including the ability to > > interact/post through the website. > > >>> > > >>> Maybe someone can convince me that I'm just being a curmudgeon, > > but at this point, I'd say we ought to be investigating options to > > have Someone Else manage the mailman service, and keep using mailing > > lists, rather than attempting to switch to discourse. > > >> > > >> > > >> On that last point, I've gone ahead and asked the folks at > > osci.io <http://osci.io> ("Open Source Community Infrastructure") if > > they'd be willing to host our mailing lists. They are a group at > > RedHat whose mission is to support infrastructure for open-source > > community projects, and they host mailman3 lists for a number of > > other open-source groups, already (https://www.osci.io/tenants/ > > <https://www.osci.io/tenants/>). So, I believe they have the > > necessary experience and expertise. > > >> > > >> They have said they indeed are willing and have the capacity to > > run this for us as a service, if we'd like. We'd still need to be > > responsible for things like list moderation, but they'd run the > > mailman installation on their infrastructure. In my opinion, we > > ought to take this option, rather than trying to push a migration to > > discourse. > > >> > > >> To me, it seems this would be a much clearer upgrade path, and > > would solve the hosting/volunteer-admin issue -- including for > > commit lists -- giving the current maintainers quicker relief from > > the undesired task of running the list service. Additionally, since > > it would be a migration to Mailman3, we would get many of the > > additional features mentioned as desirable, e.g. searchable archives > > and posting from the website. > > > > > > Thank you for checking into a mailman3 hosting option, I think > this > > > approach would make me feel the most comfortable (far more > > comfortable > > > than switching to Discord). > > > > I also find Mailman 3 friendlier than Discourse from the UX point of > > view. > > > > Currently Discourse doesn't directly support standard search > > functionality in web browsers, > > > > > > Could you describe what's missing/not working in more detail? At least I > > can use my browser (Chrome)'s search functionality to find words in both > > the pages linked below. > > > Sure! It may be easier to notice in a longer thread: Compare the > following two views--searching for D104227 using the built-in search in > a web browser initially finds 0 occurrences in the first one (at the > same time it works fine in the print preview and finds 1 occurrence in > the penultimate comment, at least at the moment of writing): > > https://llvm.discourse.group/t/rfc-introduce-alloca-scope-op/2940 > > https://llvm.discourse.group/t/rfc-introduce-alloca-scope-op/2940/printAh, yep, that demonstrates the issue but for some reason the previous links didn't (maybe because the previous linked thread was all on one page for me)> > > The issue is related to the unload-on-scroll behavior of Discourse: When > you open a page on https://llvm.discourse.group it doesn't load (or > show) the entire thread on one page by default but instead progressively > loads (and unloads) partial content as you scroll along. >Ah, yeah - which is why it hijacks the search shortcut to do a web form search rather than the browser builtin. Seems to work OK - I wouldn't count this as a major usability problem, at least for me.> > There's no such restriction in the Mailman web UI since it displays the > entire thread on one page by default, even for longer threads, e.g., > > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev at python.org/thread/JM6SQ2YNMDAKXYD5O54QWMVR2X7QOXVL/ > Loading the complete thread (displaying all messages) allows the > built-in search to work without issues. >Great to see too - especially to see that it addresses an issue that's always pained me about our current mailman setup, where threads get split by week or month - so there's no nice way to link to a whole thread. I'll be happy to see that addressed in either/any way. - Dave> > Best, > Matt >-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20210615/d7ac1272/attachment.html>
Matt P. Dziubinski via llvm-dev
2021-Jun-15 18:15 UTC
[llvm-dev] [cfe-dev] Mailing List Status Update
On 6/15/2021 19:41, David Blaikie wrote:> When > you open a page on https://llvm.discourse.group > <https://llvm.discourse.group> it doesn't load (or > show) the entire thread on one page by default but instead > progressively > loads (and unloads) partial content as you scroll along. > > Ah, yeah - which is why it hijacks the search shortcut to do a web form > search rather than the browser builtin. Seems to work OK - I wouldn't > count this as a major usability problem, at least for me.Fair enough, there's always an element of subjectivity to UX, so YMMV. At the same time one issue with the aforementioned hijacking is that is not complete, either--e.g., it doesn't support built-in search features like "Find Next" or "Find Previous". For users used to keyboard navigation this is a usability problem (especially in development-oriented discussions, when searching for occurrences of identifiers in, say, LLVM IR does come in handy).> There's no such restriction in the Mailman web UI since it displays the > entire thread on one page by default, even for longer threads, e.g., > https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev at python.org/thread/JM6SQ2YNMDAKXYD5O54QWMVR2X7QOXVL/ > <https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev at python.org/thread/JM6SQ2YNMDAKXYD5O54QWMVR2X7QOXVL/> > Loading the complete thread (displaying all messages) allows the > built-in search to work without issues. > > Great to see too - especially to see that it addresses an issue that's > always pained me about our current mailman setup, where threads get > split by week or month - so there's no nice way to link to a whole > thread. I'll be happy to see that addressed in either/any way.Agreed, I also see this as an improvement. Best, Matt