Nicolai Hähnle via llvm-dev
2020-Aug-04 21:22 UTC
[llvm-dev] Discourse category for the AMDGPU target
On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:00 PM David Blaikie <dblaikie at gmail.com> wrote:> I don't have much personal interest here - but my understanding was > that there was/is a fair bit of pushback to fragmenting the > communications channels to discord before there's a more general > buy-in to switch over across the project? (perhaps I'm misremembering > the previous threads about discourse, though - and we have already > pretty significantly fragmented on the chat-like medium between IRC > and Discord)Discourse is really more of an alternative to mailing lists, not to chat. For what it's worth, the alternatives we've looked at were: 1. Just use llvm-dev. This avoids the fragmentation you mention, but it was considered undesirable for several reasons: 1.1. Most people watching llvm-dev wouldn't be interested, and we don't want to increase the noise unnecessarily. 1.2. Some people in the relevant audience expressed that they prefer not to subscribe to llvm-dev due to its volume, or are worried that the topics they're interested in would be drowned out in the general noise. 1.3. Some people in the relevant audience expressed that posting to llvm-dev can be scary. 2. Create a new mailing list amdgpu-dev at lists.llvm.org. I think the relevant audience would be mostly fine with that, but there were two perceived advantages to the Discourse path: 2.1. If a topic in the amdgpu discussion space come up that turns out to be interesting to somebody who is not usually following that space, then the barrier to jumping into that topic is lower on Discourse -- there aren't any issues with posting to a mailing list that one isn't subscribed to. 2.2. We believe that maintaining a new mailing list is a higher burden for the LLVM project (I'm happy to be corrected on that point). Are you saying that you think we should use one of those alternatives, or do you have yet another alternative in mind? Cheers, Nicolai> > On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 9:36 AM Nicolai Hähnle via llvm-dev > <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > We’ve been having discussions over the last few weeks with > > stakeholders both inside and outside of AMD about where we could best > > have a dedicated and open discussion space for topics around the > > AMDGPU target. The conclusion was that we’d like to try the use of a > > category in the LLVM Discourse group, which is mostly used for MLIR > > discussion so far. > > > > I have started a Discourse topic with more detail, as that seemed > > rather fitting: > > https://llvm.discourse.group/t/category-for-the-amdgpu-target/1480 > > > > However, this obviously affects the broader LLVM community, hence this > > e-mail on llvm-dev. If people are generally okay with such a move, we > > would ask the Discourse admins to please create that new category. > > > > Cheers, > > Nicolai > > > > -- > > Lerne, wie die Welt wirklich ist, > > aber vergiss niemals, wie sie sein sollte. > > _______________________________________________ > > LLVM Developers mailing list > > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org > > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev-- Lerne, wie die Welt wirklich ist, aber vergiss niemals, wie sie sein sollte.
David Blaikie via llvm-dev
2020-Aug-04 21:46 UTC
[llvm-dev] Discourse category for the AMDGPU target
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 2:22 PM Nicolai Hähnle <nhaehnle at gmail.com> wrote:> > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:00 PM David Blaikie <dblaikie at gmail.com> wrote: > > I don't have much personal interest here - but my understanding was > > that there was/is a fair bit of pushback to fragmenting the > > communications channels to discord before there's a more general > > buy-in to switch over across the project? (perhaps I'm misremembering > > the previous threads about discourse, though - and we have already > > pretty significantly fragmented on the chat-like medium between IRC > > and Discord) > > Discourse is really more of an alternative to mailing lists, not to chat.Right - I mentioned that that by analogy here. In any case, the main thread that discussed this previously is here: http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2019-November/136880.html (including links to the live/in-use Discord and Discourse) I'm not sure what discussion went into MLIR using discourse - whether it got in sideways by being the way the project already interacted before it came under the LLVM umbrella. But I have some concerns about the fragmentation there. Perhaps most of the push back is about the existing LLVM lists and doesn't apply as much to new subcommunities, but I have my doubts/concerns about fragmenting the tools used to interact with LLVM communities like this - making it harder for folks to move between different subcommunities when contributing across the boundaries.> For what it's worth, the alternatives we've looked at were: > > 1. Just use llvm-dev. This avoids the fragmentation you mention, but > it was considered undesirable for several reasons: > 1.1. Most people watching llvm-dev wouldn't be interested, and we > don't want to increase the noise unnecessarily. > 1.2. Some people in the relevant audience expressed that they prefer > not to subscribe to llvm-dev due to its volume, or are worried that > the topics they're interested in would be drowned out in the general > noise. > 1.3. Some people in the relevant audience expressed that posting to > llvm-dev can be scary. > > 2. Create a new mailing list amdgpu-dev at lists.llvm.org. I think the > relevant audience would be mostly fine with that, but there were two > perceived advantages to the Discourse path: > 2.1. If a topic in the amdgpu discussion space come up that turns out > to be interesting to somebody who is not usually following that space, > then the barrier to jumping into that topic is lower on Discourse -- > there aren't any issues with posting to a mailing list that one isn't > subscribed to. > 2.2. We believe that maintaining a new mailing list is a higher burden > for the LLVM project (I'm happy to be corrected on that point). > > Are you saying that you think we should use one of those alternatives, > or do you have yet another alternative in mind? > > Cheers, > Nicolai > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 9:36 AM Nicolai Hähnle via llvm-dev > > <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > We’ve been having discussions over the last few weeks with > > > stakeholders both inside and outside of AMD about where we could best > > > have a dedicated and open discussion space for topics around the > > > AMDGPU target. The conclusion was that we’d like to try the use of a > > > category in the LLVM Discourse group, which is mostly used for MLIR > > > discussion so far. > > > > > > I have started a Discourse topic with more detail, as that seemed > > > rather fitting: > > > https://llvm.discourse.group/t/category-for-the-amdgpu-target/1480 > > > > > > However, this obviously affects the broader LLVM community, hence this > > > e-mail on llvm-dev. If people are generally okay with such a move, we > > > would ask the Discourse admins to please create that new category. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Nicolai > > > > > > -- > > > Lerne, wie die Welt wirklich ist, > > > aber vergiss niemals, wie sie sein sollte. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > LLVM Developers mailing list > > > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org > > > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev > > > > -- > Lerne, wie die Welt wirklich ist, > aber vergiss niemals, wie sie sein sollte.
Nicolai Hähnle via llvm-dev
2020-Aug-05 07:57 UTC
[llvm-dev] Discourse category for the AMDGPU target
Hi David, it's still not clear to me whether you actually have an alternative? Cheers, Nicolai On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 11:46 PM David Blaikie <dblaikie at gmail.com> wrote:> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 2:22 PM Nicolai Hähnle <nhaehnle at gmail.com> wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:00 PM David Blaikie <dblaikie at gmail.com> wrote: > > > I don't have much personal interest here - but my understanding was > > > that there was/is a fair bit of pushback to fragmenting the > > > communications channels to discord before there's a more general > > > buy-in to switch over across the project? (perhaps I'm misremembering > > > the previous threads about discourse, though - and we have already > > > pretty significantly fragmented on the chat-like medium between IRC > > > and Discord) > > > > Discourse is really more of an alternative to mailing lists, not to chat. > > Right - I mentioned that that by analogy here. > > In any case, the main thread that discussed this previously is here: > http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2019-November/136880.html > (including links to the live/in-use Discord and Discourse) > > I'm not sure what discussion went into MLIR using discourse - whether > it got in sideways by being the way the project already interacted > before it came under the LLVM umbrella. But I have some concerns about > the fragmentation there. > > Perhaps most of the push back is about the existing LLVM lists and > doesn't apply as much to new subcommunities, but I have my > doubts/concerns about fragmenting the tools used to interact with LLVM > communities like this - making it harder for folks to move between > different subcommunities when contributing across the boundaries. > > > For what it's worth, the alternatives we've looked at were: > > > > 1. Just use llvm-dev. This avoids the fragmentation you mention, but > > it was considered undesirable for several reasons: > > 1.1. Most people watching llvm-dev wouldn't be interested, and we > > don't want to increase the noise unnecessarily. > > 1.2. Some people in the relevant audience expressed that they prefer > > not to subscribe to llvm-dev due to its volume, or are worried that > > the topics they're interested in would be drowned out in the general > > noise. > > 1.3. Some people in the relevant audience expressed that posting to > > llvm-dev can be scary. > > > > 2. Create a new mailing list amdgpu-dev at lists.llvm.org. I think the > > relevant audience would be mostly fine with that, but there were two > > perceived advantages to the Discourse path: > > 2.1. If a topic in the amdgpu discussion space come up that turns out > > to be interesting to somebody who is not usually following that space, > > then the barrier to jumping into that topic is lower on Discourse -- > > there aren't any issues with posting to a mailing list that one isn't > > subscribed to. > > 2.2. We believe that maintaining a new mailing list is a higher burden > > for the LLVM project (I'm happy to be corrected on that point). > > > > Are you saying that you think we should use one of those alternatives, > > or do you have yet another alternative in mind? > > > > Cheers, > > Nicolai > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 9:36 AM Nicolai Hähnle via llvm-dev > > > <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > We’ve been having discussions over the last few weeks with > > > > stakeholders both inside and outside of AMD about where we could best > > > > have a dedicated and open discussion space for topics around the > > > > AMDGPU target. The conclusion was that we’d like to try the use of a > > > > category in the LLVM Discourse group, which is mostly used for MLIR > > > > discussion so far. > > > > > > > > I have started a Discourse topic with more detail, as that seemed > > > > rather fitting: > > > > https://llvm.discourse.group/t/category-for-the-amdgpu-target/1480 > > > > > > > > However, this obviously affects the broader LLVM community, hence this > > > > e-mail on llvm-dev. If people are generally okay with such a move, we > > > > would ask the Discourse admins to please create that new category. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Nicolai > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Lerne, wie die Welt wirklich ist, > > > > aber vergiss niemals, wie sie sein sollte. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > LLVM Developers mailing list > > > > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org > > > > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev > > > > > > > > -- > > Lerne, wie die Welt wirklich ist, > > aber vergiss niemals, wie sie sein sollte.-- Lerne, wie die Welt wirklich ist, aber vergiss niemals, wie sie sein sollte.