CentOS - Jun 2007 - CentOS Based Linux Firewall Document

I know that some of you from the list have asked me in the past for a copy of my
CentOS based Linux Firewall document.  There are also those that have no clue
what I am talking about.  This is for the former group...

There is a new version of my document out.  It's changed quite a bit since
the last person asked me for it.  Some of the changes are:

*  Updated the scripts in the Useful Shell Scripts section.
*  Changed the document format to reflect more of a professional document.
*  Added High Availability.
*  Many other small items.

There is a complete changelog "built in" in the document, so you can
compare it to the version that you already have to see what's changed.

It's still a PDF, so you don't have to worry about having Word or
OpenOffice to view it.

Just as before, e-mail me at fwdoc at mybellybutton.com to request a copy of the
latest version.


Thanks.

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pctech at mybellybutton.com wrote:
> Just as before, e-mail me at fwdoc at mybellybutton.com to request a copy
of the latest version.
Why don't you ask the Wiki gurus and put it on the CentOS Wiki?

Regards,
Max

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> Why don't you ask the Wiki gurus and put it on the CentOS Wiki?
Yes, I agree whit that. The idea is always the same: beneficing the 
community.
In this case, put the manual into the wiki would be greater for all 
CentOS users.

-----------------------------------------------

Unfortunately, I have had nothing, thus far, but bad experiences with wikis. 
Especially when you begin letting others "mark up" something that
you've posted there.  At that point, because your name is on it, you
"own" all of their mistakes.  I'm not saying that the CentOS wiki
is like that, just wikis in general.

WikiPedia is probably one of the most horrifically obvious examples of what I am
talking about.  Not only do you have all of the blatant inaccuracies, which tend
to get attributed back to the original article author, but you also have all of
the drama that goes along with it.

Things start to go sideways when you begin to let others exert their own
creative control over something with your name on it.  I'm all for the free
exchange of ideas, information, and knowledge.  I'm not all for getting
blamed for some crap someone added to something with my name on it.  Been there,
done that, don't need that drama anymore.

Some wikis, again I speak in general, not of the CentOS wiki, also demand that
you turn over any and all rights to whatever you post there.  While I enjoy
sharing my knowledge with the world for free, I will be damned if I will give up
my rights to profit from it in the future.  Even the BSD license doesn't
expect this.

This document, the firewall one, is the first in a series of documents that I
plan on writing.  I've worked very hard to get it to the state that it is at
right now.  It's what I consider a "living document" and will be
changing as necessary.  The second in the series is a document on building a
network monitor based on open source tools.  I've just begun writing it.  I
am hoping to have it completed in a couple of months, now that I have a format I
am happy with for my documents.  The third of the series will be on building a
VPN concentrator based on open source tools.  Part of what takes me so long to
write these documents is that I don't actually enjoy writing.  I enjoy
doing.  The firewall document started out of necessity to build multiple Linux
based firewalls consistently and rapidly for myself and just morphed into
something that I decided to share with the community.  I figured that since
there wasn't much out there that was useful others might like it.

While it's, most definitely, not the be-all end-all of Linux based firewall
information, I think it's a pretty good document that I've worked very
hard to write in a presentable manner that most people could understand and even
expand upon for themselves.  I am all for receiving comments and suggestions for
future revisions of the document, any document that I write for that matter. 
I'm just not all for having my documents hacked apart by every Tom, Dick,
and Harry on the Internet and then all of the misinformation getting lumped onto
my shoulders because I happen to be the person that wrote the original document.
I've already had enough drama from the CentOS forums where I got accused of
being an e-mail address harvester for a spammer.  No thanks.  I don't need
that in my life.  I'm just a computer network engineer that THOUGHT he was
doing the right thing by giving back to the community.







-- 
Thanks,
Jordi Espasa Clofent
_______________________________________________
CentOS mailing list
CentOS at centos.org
http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

pctech at mybellybutton.com wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, I have had nothing, thus far, but bad experiences with
wikis.
Especially when you begin letting others "mark up" something that
you've posted
there.  At that point, because your name is on it, you "own" all of
their
mistakes.  I'm not saying that the CentOS wiki is like that, just wikis in 
general.
> 
> WikiPedia is probably one of the most horrifically obvious examples of what
I
am talking about.  Not only do you have all of the blatant inaccuracies, which 
tend to get attributed back to the original article author, but you also have 
all of the drama that goes along with it.

Did you miss the 'revision history' link that removes all doubt about 
who said what?

--------------------------------------------------

Yeah.  I saw it.  Your snippy comment just shows EXACTLY what I am talking
about.

I also know, for a fact, that a large percentage of the people that read a wiki
ignore that when something goes wrong and go straight to the source.  I've
seen it far too many times.  I've seen the "Well, your information is
wrong.  You said this."  "No I didn't."  "Yes you did. 
Look at your wiki."  "No I didn't.  Look at the revision history. 
Someone else did."  "It's your posting, you're responsible, so
it's your fault and your information is wrong."  You might be surprised
how few people even care who said what.  They hold the original author
responsible.


No thanks.  I don't need that drama.  This started out as a project solely
for my own use.  Nothing more and nothing less.  It morphed to what it is today
because I didn't see anything like it out on the 'Net at the time.  At
the end of the day, it has my name on it, so it's my heartburn if someone
marks it up and it's wrong.

If people don't want it because of my chosen distribution method, that's
fine by me.  I'll just keep my documents to myself and then they don't
have to worry about it.







-- 
   Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell at gmail.com
_______________________________________________
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pctech at mybellybutton.com wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, I have had nothing, thus far, but bad experiences with
wikis.
Especially when you begin letting others "mark up" something that
you've posted
there.  At that point, because your name is on it, you "own" all of
their
mistakes.  I'm not saying that the CentOS wiki is like that, just wikis in 
general.
> 
> WikiPedia is probably one of the most horrifically obvious examples of what
I
am talking about.  Not only do you have all of the blatant inaccuracies, which 
tend to get attributed back to the original article author, but you also have 
all of the drama that goes along with it.
> 
> Things start to go sideways when you begin to let others exert their own 
creative control over something with your name on it.  I'm all for the free 
exchange of ideas, information, and knowledge.  I'm not all for getting
blamed
for some crap someone added to something with my name on it.  Been there, done 
that, don't need that drama anymore.
> 
> Some wikis, again I speak in general, not of the CentOS wiki, also demand 
that you turn over any and all rights to whatever you post there.  While I 
enjoy sharing my knowledge with the world for free, I will be damned if I will 
give up my rights to profit from it in the future.  Even the BSD license 
doesn't expect this.
> 
> This document, the firewall one, is the first in a series of documents that
I
plan on writing.  I've worked very hard to get it to the state that it is at
right now.  It's what I consider a "living document" and will be
changing as
necessary.  The second in the series is a document on building a network 
monitor based on open source tools.  I've just begun writing it.  I am
hoping
to have it completed in a couple of months, now that I have a format I am happy 
with for my documents.  The third of the series will be on building a VPN 
concentrator based on open source tools.  Part of what takes me so long to 
write these documents is that I don't actually enjoy writing.  I enjoy
doing.
The firewall document started out of necessity to build multiple Linux based 
firewalls consistently and rapidly for myself and just morphed into something 
that I decided to share with the community.  I figured that since there
wasn't
much out there that was useful others might like it.
> 
> While it's, most definitely, not the be-all end-all of Linux based
firewall
information, I think it's a pretty good document that I've worked very
hard to
write in a presentable manner that most people could understand and even expand 
upon for themselves.  I am all for receiving comments and suggestions for 
future revisions of the document, any document that I write for that matter.  
I'm just not all for having my documents hacked apart by every Tom, Dick,
and
Harry on the Internet and then all of the misinformation getting lumped onto my 
shoulders because I happen to be the person that wrote the original document.  
I've already had enough drama from the CentOS forums where I got accused of 
being an e-mail address harvester for a spammer.  No thanks.  I don't need
that
in my life.  I'm just a computer network engineer that THOUGHT he was doing
the
right thing by giving back to the community.


Understood, that's your right. It seems kind of silly, though, to go to
the trouble of writing so much, then limit yourself with sharing to only
a very small percentage of the CentOS community by broadcasting a
message to e-mail you for documentation. Documentation is supposed to be
readily available, that's the point of it, at least from my perspective,
no matter what the license or stipulations of the content are.

Although you can pick out a license for your material that would cover
protecting the interests you have expressed, yet at the same time
allowing others to share in your material. One of the Creative Commons
license, or another, would do the trick.

That said, do you not have a place to host the document then? It seems
that if you've gone to that much trouble to write something, then
perhaps you just need a spot somewhere to host the document?

----------------------------------------

Currently I have a domain, yes, however my bandwidth is rather limited.  By
cost, not by speed.  I don't feel like incurring hundreds of dollars in
usage fees to post this on my domain.


Licensing is good and fine, except for the fact that once you post something on
a wiki, in most cases, anyone that comes along can freely add to and modify the
content of what you've posted.  This happens on Wikipedia quite frequently. 
This doesn't cover the "It's your fault because you wrote the
document" blame that gets lumped on you when something goes wrong from a
change that someone else made.  The person who's name is on the document is
the one that is going to get his or her neck wrung by the pissed off person. 
I've had it happen in the past.  I don't care to repeat it.  I really
don't like lawyers sending me letters because of stupidity like that.

I originally chose the method that I use for disseminating it because, to be
honest, I don't really see that there is enough interest in it to invest the
time or money into something larger.  I have, however, considered asking the
admins of the IEEE Computer Society, LOPSA, or AZSAGE if I could post it on
their sites when I renew my memberships.



Regards,
Max
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On 6/6/07, pctech at mybellybutton.com <pctech at mybellybutton.com>
wrote:
> > Why don't you ask the Wiki gurus and put it on the CentOS Wiki?
>
> Yes, I agree whit that. The idea is always the same: beneficing the
> community.
> In this case, put the manual into the wiki would be greater for all
> CentOS users.
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> Unfortunately, I have had nothing, thus far, but bad experiences with
wikis.
Especially when you begin letting others "mark up" something that
you've posted
there.  At that point, because your name is on it, you "own" all of
their
mistakes.  I'm not saying that the CentOS wiki is like that, just wikis in 
general.
[...]

Please don't start this again.  You can view last year's argument
about this here:
http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2006-August/thread.html#67803

PCtech: You are certainly entitled to control your copyrighted
material however you like, but if you look at how the rest of the open
source community handles this type of information, you must be able to
see that the method you are using is not typical.  It's the type of
thing that makes other people uncomfortable.  Again, you are
completely entitled to handle it however you like, but you need to
expect people will consider your method unsavory.

--------------------------------------------------

It is VERY typical in the open source community.  Name me ONE open source
project that just ANYONE can submit changes to that will go live without some
sort of vetting process.  You can't.  Because there are none.  A large
percentage of the open source projects don't even accept submissions from
people that aren't on the development team.

I don't need to expect anything of the sort.  I don't HAVE to offer this
document, or any of the future ones, to people.  I do it because I WANT to.  For
the good of the community as it were.  That doesn't mean that I have to give
up all of my rights to who can actually change the document that I spent the
time to write.  How is the way I am disseminating it ANY less "savory"
than posting it on a web site for people to download?  Because I choose e-mail? 
It allows ME to control the cost of disseminating the information.  It allows ME
to control the alterations to my document.  I've tried disseminating things
in a wiki format before.  No thanks.  One letter from a lawyer was quite enough.
I don't know about you, but *I* don't want to have to defend myself
against someone for something that I give out for free and wrote, initially, for
myself.






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On 6/6/07, pctech at mybellybutton.com <pctech at mybellybutton.com>
wrote:
> If people don't want it because of my chosen distribution method,
that's fine
by me.  I'll just keep my documents to myself and then they don't have
to worry
about it.

Then do so, and keep it off this list. This started an argument last
year, and it seems to be starting one now.

---------------------------------------------

It wouldn't have started one then, nor one now, if people wouldn't try
to tell me what to do with my own document.  At the end of the day I will
distribute it in any manner that I see fit.

Just because someone doesn't like the way I distribute it doesn't mean
that they have the right to tell me what to do with it or how to give it to
people.  If they don't like my distribution method then they are free not to
ask for it.  Nobody's making them ask for it.  I *CLEARLY* stated in my
original e-mail who the intended target audience was.



-- 
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary 
act.
George Orwell
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--- Jordi Espasa Clofent
<sistemes.llistes at intergrid.cat> wrote:
> > I want to mention/remind that Karanbir is a very
> active part of
> > CentOS and has given a lot of time and hard work
> to me and the
> > whole community.
> 
> Yes. When I've said my words against pctech's point
> of view I've done it 
> with people like Karanbir, Johnny, Jim, Lance,
> Ralph, Daniel and so on 
> in mind.
> 
> ?How many hours do they spend in front of their
> machines, trying to 
> improve this beautiful project?
> 
> At least, their altruistic and generous attitude
> deserves all our respect.
> 
> -- 
> Thanks,
> Jordi Espasa Clofent
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS mailing list
> CentOS at centos.org
> http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
> 
I took a little peak at the document in mention, and
there is one thing that bothers me about it. It is the
mentioning of this little sentence "this document
contains information compiled from many sources." Now
i am not no English major or proclaim to be, but when
you take other people work and use it in your work are
you not suppose to cite that? 

How do we know he did copy and paste other peoples
work and then call it his own? there is not one
citation in his work. If this has happen and that was
my work, damn i know i would of be mighty pissed about
that!

Can not say oh since he took it from so many places he
does not know all the sites, books...etc that is not
an excuse either.

i know my writing is bad, but you get the idea what i
am trying to say!!! and the reason i am saying
anything is when a person acts like a jag i can be a
bigger jag!!!!!!!

Steven
 
--------------------------------------------

Actually I *DID* cite my sources in the document.  Look at the section entitled
"Application Documentation and HowTo Links".  Nice try at slandering
me though.

Although I *HAVE seem to have forgotten to input the links for the Linux HA web
site and HowTos.  That will be corrected in the next revision.















"On the side of the software box, in the 'System Requirements'
section, it said
'Requires Windows or better'. So I installed Linux."
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> I want to mention/remind that Karanbir is a very active part of
> CentOS and has given a lot of time and hard work to me and the
> whole community.
Yes. When I've said my words against pctech's point of view I've
done it
with people like Karanbir, Johnny, Jim, Lance, Ralph, Daniel and so on 
in mind.

?How many hours do they spend in front of their machines, trying to 
improve this beautiful project?

At least, their altruistic and generous attitude deserves all our respect.

---------------------------------------------------

And I have never denied their accomplishments, nor badmouthed their integrity. 
I can't say the same about them with regards to me, however.












-- 
Thanks,
Jordi Espasa Clofent
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On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:12:33 +0100
Karanbir Singh <mail-lists at karan.org> wrote:

...

I want to mention/remind that Karanbir is a very active part of
CentOS and has given a lot of time and hard work to me and the
whole community.

Thanks Karanbir.

-------------------------------------------------------

I would tend to agree with you.  However, he seems to go out of his way to
badmouth other people's accomplishments and attempts to help out the
community.





-- 
Thanks
http://www.sqlhacks.com
The SQL knowledge base
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Hi,

Ashton, Jeremy - Workstream Inc. wrote:
> At least Frank took the initiative to write a document.  Yes, there will
> be mistakes in it.  No, it will not include all the information under
> the sun.  Perhaps there are better documents or book available out
> there.  But, at least he took the initiative to do his own work.
The only reason I pitched in is because, he is :
   (a) an idiot, with no idea of what he is talking about
   (b) has no regard for the work that we do
   (c) clueless about the idea of community
and
   (d) I dont quite like the idea of pushing non-shareable / 
non-community friendly licensed material here, specially under the guise 
of 'hey, I am doing you all a favour'.

If what he is saying is correct and a community initiative cant work, we 
wont have Linux today where it is and people would not be making the 
sort of time and effort commitments they do into these projects.

Anyway, he asked a question - I just asked him to facilitate an answer. 
Unless, of-course, he does not really want an answer and was just 
taunting and blowing his own horn.
> Once again I am reminded how immature the community can be at times.
> Can we not all get along and drop these childish antics and retorts?
Absolutely, I agree. Its a free world and people have a right to go do 
as they please - more so in these free software environs we like to live 
in, but you see what happens is that when someone is going to stand back 
and slagg off other people - other people have the right to call his 
antics just that. antics.

Finally, I await this bible-of-firewall docs that he has come up with.

- KB

------------------------------------------------------

I will address your points in the order and manner in which you have made them.

(a) This ia an overly broad statement.  What exactly do I not know that I am
talking about, about?

(b) Where have I *EVER* stated that I had no regard for the work that you do. 
Show me ONE occurrence.  You cannot, because I have not.

(c) How am I clueless about the idea of community?  The last time I checked
communities rallied together to help one another.  I have offered my document
FOR FREE to anyone that would like it.  How is that not helping the community?

(d)  It is perfectly shareable.  I have stated on this list many times, and to
people individually, that they are free to post it wherever they like.  I've
even stated on this list more than once that I would be happy to send anyone
that asks the source Word file that was used.  I have never told ANYONE that
they could not post it anywhere.  I stated that *I* could not afford to host it.

Where have I ever said that the community initiative doesn't or won't
work?  I've never stated that either.  I stated that I had been burned by a
wiki article to the point that lawyers were involved so I don't use wiki.  I
never stated that anyone else couldn't post the document to the wiki.

I am not sure what question you are referring to.  Which one would that be?  All
I see are accusations and name calling, no questions.

Your sarcasm about my "bible of firewall docs" is petty and
unbecoming.  I never once stated that it was the be-all end-all of firewall
documents.  What I *DID* say, however, was that I compiled a document to help me
out and thought that others in the community would like it.  Nothing more and
nothing less.  I will be more than happy to send it to you, just like I have
been more than happy to send it to everyone else.  Let me know where you would
like it sent to.






-- 
Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/ : 2522219 at icq
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Around 03:34pm on Thursday, June 07, 2007 (UK time), Brent L. Bates scrawled:
>      In case anyone is interested.  Frank Tanner III emailed me his PDF
file
> and I've put it up on my Web site at the following URL:
> 
> 	http://www.vigyan.com/~blbates/Building-a-Linux-Firewall.pdf
> 
> Do with it what you will.
What, even post it to a WIKI - GR&D :-)

Steve

----------------------------------------------------

Someone posting it to a wiki is perfectly fine with me.  I never said that
nobody could.  I said that *I* wouldn't.  There is a difference.















-- 

A:  Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q:  Why is top-posting a bad thing?

 15:45:20 up 10 days,  2:03,  0 users,  load average: 0.02, 0.02, 0.00

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In case anyone is interested.  Frank Tanner III emailed me his PDF file
and I've put it up on my Web site at the following URL:

	http://www.vigyan.com/~blbates/Building-a-Linux-Firewall.pdf

Do with it what you will.

---------------------------------------------------

Thank you for hosting it.

I would like to note that I revise it on a frequent basis because it is, what I
consider to be, a living document.  When new versions of the software come out,
or I decide on a format change, typo, you name it.

The same could be said for the other documents in the pipe.

-- 

  Brent L. Bates (UNIX Sys. Admin.)
  M.S. 912				Phone:(757) 865-1400, x204
  NASA Langley Research Center	  	  FAX:(757) 865-8177
  Hampton, Virginia  23681-0001
  Email: B.L.BATES at larc.nasa.gov	http://www.vigyan.com/~blbates/

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hey pctech,

Instead of sniping with you over your chosen way to control access:

May i have a copy please?  If I like it i would offer the following:

I'll put this up on my businesses site for you, give you full 
accreditation, and it will only be a downloadable document(unless you 
want it viewable as well).  Since my server is unmetered bandwidth 
overages aren't an issue.

-----------------------------------------

Sure.  I have no problem with this, and never have.  Where would you like me to
send it to?




pctech at mybellybutton.com wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> pctech at mybellybutton.com wrote:
>> Unfortunately, I have had nothing, thus far, but bad experiences with
wikis.
 
> Especially when you begin letting others "mark up" something that
you've
posted 
> there.  At that point, because your name is on it, you "own" all
of their
> mistakes.  I'm not saying that the CentOS wiki is like that, just wikis
in
> general.
>> WikiPedia is probably one of the most horrifically obvious examples of
what
I 
> am talking about.  Not only do you have all of the blatant inaccuracies, 
which 
> tend to get attributed back to the original article author, but you also
have
> all of the drama that goes along with it.
>> Things start to go sideways when you begin to let others exert their
own
> creative control over something with your name on it.  I'm all for the
free
> exchange of ideas, information, and knowledge.  I'm not all for getting
blamed 
> for some crap someone added to something with my name on it.  Been there, 
done 
> that, don't need that drama anymore.
>> Some wikis, again I speak in general, not of the CentOS wiki, also
demand
> that you turn over any and all rights to whatever you post there.  While I 
> enjoy sharing my knowledge with the world for free, I will be damned if I 
will 
> give up my rights to profit from it in the future.  Even the BSD license 
> doesn't expect this.
>> This document, the firewall one, is the first in a series of documents
that
I 
> plan on writing.  I've worked very hard to get it to the state that it
is at
> right now.  It's what I consider a "living document" and will
be changing as
> necessary.  The second in the series is a document on building a network 
> monitor based on open source tools.  I've just begun writing it.  I am
hoping
> to have it completed in a couple of months, now that I have a format I am 
happy 
> with for my documents.  The third of the series will be on building a VPN 
> concentrator based on open source tools.  Part of what takes me so long to 
> write these documents is that I don't actually enjoy writing.  I enjoy
doing.
 
> The firewall document started out of necessity to build multiple Linux
based
> firewalls consistently and rapidly for myself and just morphed into
something
> that I decided to share with the community.  I figured that since there 
wasn't 
> much out there that was useful others might like it.
>> While it's, most definitely, not the be-all end-all of Linux based
firewall
> information, I think it's a pretty good document that I've worked
very hard
to 
> write in a presentable manner that most people could understand and even 
expand 
> upon for themselves.  I am all for receiving comments and suggestions for 
> future revisions of the document, any document that I write for that
matter.
> I'm just not all for having my documents hacked apart by every Tom,
Dick, and
> Harry on the Internet and then all of the misinformation getting lumped
onto
my 
> shoulders because I happen to be the person that wrote the original
document.
 
> I've already had enough drama from the CentOS forums where I got
accused of
> being an e-mail address harvester for a spammer.  No thanks.  I don't
need
that 
> in my life.  I'm just a computer network engineer that THOUGHT he was
doing
the 
> right thing by giving back to the community.
> 
> 
> Understood, that's your right. It seems kind of silly, though, to go to
> the trouble of writing so much, then limit yourself with sharing to only
> a very small percentage of the CentOS community by broadcasting a
> message to e-mail you for documentation. Documentation is supposed to be
> readily available, that's the point of it, at least from my
perspective,
> no matter what the license or stipulations of the content are.
> 
> Although you can pick out a license for your material that would cover
> protecting the interests you have expressed, yet at the same time
> allowing others to share in your material. One of the Creative Commons
> license, or another, would do the trick.
> 
> That said, do you not have a place to host the document then? It seems
> that if you've gone to that much trouble to write something, then
> perhaps you just need a spot somewhere to host the document?
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> Currently I have a domain, yes, however my bandwidth is rather limited.  By
cost, not by speed.  I don't feel like incurring hundreds of dollars in
usage
fees to post this on my domain.
> 
> 
> Licensing is good and fine, except for the fact that once you post
something
on a wiki, in most cases, anyone that comes along can freely add to and modify 
the content of what you've posted.  This happens on Wikipedia quite
frequently.
 This doesn't cover the "It's your fault because you wrote the
document" blame
that gets lumped on you when something goes wrong from a change that someone 
else made.  The person who's name is on the document is the one that is
going
to get his or her neck wrung by the pissed off person.  I've had it happen
in
the past.  I don't care to repeat it.  I really don't like lawyers
sending me
letters because of stupidity like that.
> 
> I originally chose the method that I use for disseminating it because, to
be
honest, I don't really see that there is enough interest in it to invest the
time or money into something larger.  I have, however, considered asking the 
admins of the IEEE Computer Society, LOPSA, or AZSAGE if I could post it on 
their sites when I renew my memberships.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Max
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> 
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> AntiSpam:  SpamAssassin 3.1.8
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> 
-- 
My "Foundation" verse:
Isa 54:17  No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and 
every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt 
condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their 
righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

-- carpe ductum -- "Grab the tape"
CDTT (Certified Duct Tape Technician)

Linux user #322099
Machines:
206822
256638
276825
http://counter.li.org/
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Frank Tanner III wrote:
>> I think you should keep it locked up and not share it with anyone.  
>> There are probably hundreds of similar documents freely available out 
there.
> Name me a dozen documents that contain similar information to what mine
> contains.
Send me a copy of what your document is, and I shall be happy to point
out a dozen or so resouces that have *better* info than what you provide.

- KB

--------------------------------------------------

Sure.  Where would you like me to send it to?





-- 
Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/ : 2522219 at icq
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On Wednesday 06 June 2007 23:06:30 John bowden wrote:
> On Wednesday 06 June 2007 16:27:28 Max Hetrick wrote:
> > pctech at mybellybutton.com wrote:
> > > Unfortunately, I have had nothing, thus far, but bad experiences
with
> > > wikis.  Especially when you begin letting others "mark
up" something
> > > that you've posted there.  At that point, because your name
is on it,
> > > you "own" all of their mistakes.  I'm not saying
that the CentOS wiki
> > > is like that, just wikis in general.
> > >
> > > WikiPedia is probably one of the most horrifically obvious
examples of
> > > what I am talking about.  Not only do you have all of the blatant
> > > inaccuracies, which tend to get attributed back to the original
article
> > > author, but you also have all of the drama that goes along with
it.
> > >
> > > Things start to go sideways when you begin to let others exert
their
> > > own creative control over something with your name on it. 
I'm all for
> > > the free exchange of ideas, information, and knowledge.  I'm
not all
> > > for getting blamed for some crap someone added to something with
my
> > > name on it.  Been there, done that, don't need that drama
anymore.
> > >
> > > Some wikis, again I speak in general, not of the CentOS wiki,
also
> > > demand that you turn over any and all rights to whatever you post
> > > there.  While I enjoy sharing my knowledge with the world for
free, I
> > > will be damned if I will give up my rights to profit from it in
the
> > > future.  Even the BSD license doesn't expect this.
> > >
> > > This document, the firewall one, is the first in a series of
documents
> > > that I plan on writing.  I've worked very hard to get it to
the state
> > > that it is at right now.  It's what I consider a "living
document" and
> > > will be changing as necessary.  The second in the series is a
document
> > > on building a network monitor based on open source tools. 
I've just
> > > begun writing it.  I am hoping to have it completed in a couple
of
> > > months, now that I have a format I am happy with for my
documents.  The
> > > third of the series will be on building a VPN concentrator based
on
> > > open source tools. Part of what takes me so long to write these
> > > documents is that I don't actually enjoy writing.  I enjoy
doing.  The
> > > firewall document started out of necessity to build multiple
Linux
> > > based firewalls consistently and rapidly for myself and just
morphed
> > > into something that I decided to share with the community.  I
figured
> > > that since there wasn't much out there that was useful others
might
> > > like it.
> > >
> > > While it's, most definitely, not the be-all end-all of Linux
based
> > > firewall information, I think it's a pretty good document
that I've
> > > worked very hard to write in a presentable manner that most
people
> > > could understand and even expand upon for themselves.  I am all
for
> > > receiving comments and suggestions for future revisions of the
> > > document, any document that I write for that matter.  I'm
just not all
> > > for having my documents hacked apart by every Tom, Dick, and
Harry on
> > > the Internet and then all of the misinformation getting lumped
onto my
> > > shoulders because I happen to be the person that wrote the
original
> > > document.  I've already had enough drama from the CentOS
forums where I
> > > got accused of being an e-mail address harvester for a spammer. 
No
> > > thanks.  I don't need that in my life.  I'm just a
computer network
> > > engineer that THOUGHT he was doing the right thing by giving back
to
> > > the community.
> >
> > Understood, that's your right. It seems kind of silly, though, to
go to
> > the trouble of writing so much, then limit yourself with sharing to
only
> > a very small percentage of the CentOS community by broadcasting a
> > message to e-mail you for documentation. Documentation is supposed to
be
> > readily available, that's the point of it, at least from my
perspective,
> > no matter what the license or stipulations of the content are.
> >
> > Although you can pick out a license for your material that would cover
> > protecting the interests you have expressed, yet at the same time
> > allowing others to share in your material. One of the Creative Commons
> > license, or another, would do the trick.
> >
> > That said, do you not have a place to host the document then? It seems
> > that if you've gone to that much trouble to write something, then
> > perhaps you just need a spot somewhere to host the document?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Max
> > _______________________________________________
> > CentOS mailing list
> > CentOS at centos.org
> > http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>
> Just a thought how about releasing it as a "how to"?
Can I have a copy please? I don't care how you distribute it, e mail, snail 
mail or by pigeon mail. My cat prefers the pigeon method ;-)

--------------------------------------------------

Sure.  Where would you like me to send it ot?  I'd be more than happy to.














-- 
Guy Fawkes, the only man to enter the house's of parliment
with honest intentions, (he was going to blow them up!)
Registered Linux user number 414240
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>> So you chose to distribute your document via PDF and it is what 15MB in
>> size? You email this to those who are interested...do you do one single
>> mailing with all the addresses or do you individually email them? How 
>> many of these guys can take a 15MB attachment or a 20MB message? 
>> Probably all but I wonder how many of those who did not ask, did not do
>> so because they do not have a mailbox on a system that can swallow a 
>> 20MB message.
>>
> 
> I chose to distribute my document via PDF because it was the best way to
> make it cross platform.  Nothing more, and nothing less.  EVERY platform
> supports PDF.  Not every platform supports Microsoft Office.  The
> document size is 8.8Mb to be exact.  A far cry from 15MB or 20MB.  And,
> since I didn't publish the size of the document in my e-mail they
> wouldn't know how large it was to decide not to ask.  If someone would
> like the document source, they're welcome to it.  Again, I chose PDF
for
> portability.  No other reason.
Actually, having it available in html too would be a good thing imho.
> 
> Out of the 53 documents that I have sent out since I posted this, there
> have been three bounce backs.  One because someone's mailbox was full
> and two because the document was too big.
Well, another mode of distribution might be good then...
> 
>> Les:
>> Did you miss the 'revision history' link that removes all doubt
about
>> who said what?
>>
> 
> Did you see where I posted that the revision history tends to get
> ignored by alot of people?  I even stated what exactly happened in my
> case.  Sorry.  Allowing someone else to revise my document, even with a
> revision history, isn't worth being contacted by lawyers because of a
> revision someone else made.  If you can't understand that, I'm
sorry.
Right, so you are now going to discount the fact that on the centos wiki 
  modifications are only possible by admins, yourself or those whom you 
allow?

>> You then complain about
>>
>> "Currently I have a domain, yes, however my bandwidth is rather
limited.
>>   By cost, not by speed.  I don't feel like incurring hundreds of 
>> dollars in usage fees to post this on my domain."
>>
>> but don't feel like posting on the Centos wiki but do yap about
'big'
>> names like IEEE...
>>
> 
> I "yapped" about a big site like IEEE because I am hoping that I
can get
> THEM to host the document, because I am limited to my monthly bandwidth.
> The difference between the IEEE site and wiki is that IEEE will host the
> actual document.  Wiki is a whole different animal.  That's like
> comparing apples to corn.  When I hit the cap, I have a significant
> usage penalty.  I am giving this document out for free.  I cannot afford
> to pay $100 a month in bandwidth fees when I go over my cap.
Do you or do you not know that you can put a pdf in a wiki?

-------------------------------------------------------

I will address your points one at a time.

To be honest, I never thought about making it HTML.  You're right.  That
wouldn't be a bad idea.  I have no problem with doing that if I can find a
way to do it without breaking the formatting too badly.

I don't know what the CentOS wiki specifically can or cannot do.  I know
what my experience is with wiki's thus far.  Nobody has talked to me about
this one tiny bit.  They have just said, "You should do this and you should
do that."  Nobody have ever sent me an e-mail to the list or to my e-mail
about ANYTHING with regards to the wiki and what it was capable of.










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