[llvm-dev] Fwd: RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Zachary Turner via llvm-dev
2019-11-19T15:07:59Z

But is it better or worse than IRC in this regard?

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:49 PM Daniel Chapiesky via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:

>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Daniel Chapiesky <dchapiesky2 at gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 1:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for
> LLVM's discussions
> To: Gaier, Bjoern <Bjoern.Gaier at horiba.com>
>
>
> Bjoern said:
>
> " I found it pretty difficult to use Discord for that, because there
was
> one channel for asking questions. So I posted my question, but the next
> reply was to the previous subject, burying my question directly. So I
> think... this was bad"
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Well said Bjoern.
>
> That and discussions won't be archived or usefully searchable - discord
> search is horrible
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:42 AM Gaier, Bjoern via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>> Hey :/
>>
>> It is weird for me to write something to this subject, because... as an
>> newbie I kinda feel like not being 'allowed' to do so. I'm
following the
>> mailing list for quite a while and usually use it to ask questions.
I'm not
>> sure how to become a bigger part of the LLVM and if I'm suitable
for it...
>> I often use Discord to stay in touch with friends and for my hobby
>> (Furries) - however, I joined exactly one programming related server
about
>> Box2D (a physics library) , again to ask questions. I found it pretty
>> difficult to use Discord for that, because there was one channel for
asking
>> questions. So I posted my question, but the next reply was to the
previous
>> subject, burying my question directly. So I think... this was bad :/
>> Sometimes you were lucky that people dug out your old questions but...
that
>> rarely happened.
>> Also the general chats were kinda silent...
>>
>> Since I'm only asking questions here, I would like a system where
>> questions are not being drowned by other discussions and the mailing
list
>> kinda works for me. Sure, after a while my message might be buried as
well,
>> but it takes longer then in Discord. Also the titles help me deciding
if
>> the subject is of interest for me or not...
>>
>> Maybe that helped? Sorry if not >o<
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of
Kristina
>> Brooks via llvm-dev
>> Sent: 18 November 2019 16:29
>> To: Chandler Carruth <chandlerc at gmail.com>
>> Cc: llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
>> Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for
>> LLVM's discussions
>>
>> While I understand the difficulty regarding mailing lists especially if
>> one isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to classify and
label
>> emails and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would have
concerns
>> over Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open protocol and many
clients
>> and open source server implementations, Discord is fairly hostile
towards
>> 3rd party clients, and has a concerning history with regards to
privacy.
>> While that may not be a concern for public channels, private messages
are
>> another matter entirely. The protocol isn't entirely friendly and
is
>> relatively new, which makes it inflexible to use compared to IRC. IRC
>> clients are easy to leave in tmux sessions and reconnect, as opposed to
>> Discord where something akin to a web browser is required for a
somewhat
>> stable client and 3rd party clients, aside from stability issues, are
flat
>> out against the terms of service (even if this aspect isn't
actively
>> enforced). On top of that there are too many out of scope features
related
>> to software project development, with Discord being far more than a
transit
>> provider, unlike what a lot of IRC networks are classed under. So as
far as
>> Discord goes, very strong -1 in my opinion.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello everyone,
>> >
>> > Short version:
>> > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar
to IRC)
>> and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
>> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>> >
https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
>> >
3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
>> >
&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
>> > badf539d389685869
>> >
>> > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially
set up
>> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach
out to
>> this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also,
both
>> services have dedicated feedback channels.
>> >
>> > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although
try
>> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between
the
>> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the
discussion
>> with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case
Discourse
>> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it
isn't lost.
>> >
>> > Longer version & more details:
>> > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
>> > expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
>> > non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
>> > about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and
mailing
>> > lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and
often
>> > intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and
resistant
>> > to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was
>> > compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if
it
>> > means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>> >
>> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there
and
>> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
>> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial
Discord
>> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
>> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>> >
https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
>> >
3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
>> >
&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
>> > badf539d389685869
>> >
>> > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be
great for
>> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
>> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on
both
>> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific
set of
>> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike
and we
>> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>> >
>> > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>> > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
place,
>> etc.
>> >
>> > See the plan here:
>> >
https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
>> >
3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group%2ft%2fmirroring%2dand%2darchiving%2dllvm%
>> >
2dmailing%2dlists%2don%2ddiscourse%2f61&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3
>> >
368bc108e8e&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-ecf495cfb4c1
>> > 9b33b2115bb647dbc85b26fc4ca0
>> >
>> > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>> > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>> similarly email-focused workflow.
>> >
>> >
>> > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
seriously try
>> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of
the
>> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also
have
>> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow
of
>> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has
very
>> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should
seriously
>> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>> >
>> > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop
for
>> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these
>> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to
>> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It
takes a
>> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also
>> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks
to
>> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
>> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things
set
>> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially
around
>> Discord bots.
>> >
>> > -Chandler
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
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