[Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"

Daniele Alessandri
2010-08-09T09:12:31Z

+1 on being patient and see how we can shape the project and run a
more community-driven ironruby, I think it''s too early and rushed to
start thinking about a fork (ferb or whatever). I''m on vacation right
now so I can''t do much, I''ll be back in a week and see how I
can help
with anything.

2010/8/9, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy at
schementi.com>:
> Ah, after a nice restful weekend of casually looking at the psychotic
> twitter reactions, I think I owe this thread a little attention.
>
> First off, I appreciate the overwhelming support, and I think I speak on
> behalf of Jim and Tomas as well. Thank you for caring so much, and for all
> the personal best wishes. Also, I appreciate everyone who stepped in and
> "cooled" down the situation. Those who see opportunity in this
are
> well-suited to help shape the future of the project. But enough with the
> mushy stuff ...
>
> The reality of open-source software is that corporate sponsorship and
> funding comes and goes, and it would appear the IronRuby project is just
> going through that normal cycle. I''m grateful to Microsoft for not
only
> employing me, but funding IronRuby to the 1.1 release. Keep in mind that
> Microsoft has not officially said anything regarding IronRuby, even it
seems
> my leaving Microsoft speaks volumes. So, let''s just assume what we
suspect
> to be true unless told otherwise.
>
> This is a monumental opportunity for you all, the IronRuby community, to
> rally around something Microsoft invested in, enough to a initial 1.0
> release, and make it your own. However, there are two things we should ask
> Microsoft to commit to during this transition:
>
>    1. *Be clear about their intentions. *I *know *this will eventually
>    happen, but I want to make it clear to all of you that this is the first
>    step.
>    2. *Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity *(again, assuming they
>    don''t plan on continuing funding). Though IronRuby is licensed
under an
>    open-source license, it is copyright Microsoft. IronRuby.net is owned by
>    Microsoft. The GitHub "ironruby" organization is managed by
Microsoft.
> Etc,
>    etc. If the intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a non-profit
>    foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal, so
>    that we don''t need to jointly own the copyright. There also is
precedence
> in
>    Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex foundation,
so
>    Tomas and Jim can continue to contribute.
>
> In other words, a complete transition to non-Microsoft ownership.
I''m not
> the only person with a voice here, so if there is anything else
you''d like
> to see Microsoft do for a smooth transition, please speak up and
let''s
> discuss it. I''m hoping my leaving announcement will speed this
process
> along, so assume we have little time to provide "demands".
>
> After these things happen, then we can all start figuring how to run the
> project, put infrastructure in place, and start figuring out what we need
to
> accomplish to release IronRuby 1.2. Or, if none if this happens in the time
> we''d like, we can start FeRb (as @robconery essentially started to
do =)).
> But let''s try to be patient with IronRuby itself for now.
I''ve also hinted
> at revisiting RubyCLR, but that will be a separate project (do contact me
if
> you''re interested). Also, feel free to still have the important
> conversations brought up in the previous messages; in no way am I
suggesting
> people stop talking.
>
> Cory mentioned that my "leadership and vision" was lost. I think
you''re
> taking my job too seriously =P  ... but joking aside, I just wanted to move
> back to New York and it was time to leave Microsoft, but not Ruby or
> IronRuby. So, for the foreseeable future, or unless someone else wants to
> step up, you can still count on me to be the face of IronRuby and write
> code. Also, my new job is in the .NET world still, so to stay sane
I''ll
> still want to work on IronRuby. =)
>
> This is a challenging and emotional time indeed. Again, I appreciate
> everyone''s support and energy. Please keep the energy high, but
directed.
> Continue discussing "why IronRuby". Work in your private fork,
take shots at
> fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing; they''ll
eventually get
> integrated back. Continue blogging about how you''re using
IronRuby. Show the
> world that regardless of Microsoft''s position, the community is
what makes
> the project live.
>
> Now, discuss!
>
> ~Jimmy
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Jim Deville <jdeville at
microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>>  At this point Jimmy might, but the only one that should be commiting
>> there directly is the automated account. Once we get official word from
MS
>> on what will happen with everything, I?d be happy to discuss the fate
of
>> the
>> IronRuby organization on Github J
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org [mailto:
>> ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org] *On Behalf Of *Orion Edwards
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:07 PM
>>
>> *To:* ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"
>>
>>
>>
>> 4. Rails on .NET
>>
>>
>>
>> I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular
>> scenario, but rails is still literally *years* ahead of MVC in both
>> maturity
>> and thinking.
>>
>>
>>
>> If we could get rails under ironruby easily deplorable to iis, I think
>> this
>> would help a lot
>>
>>
>>
>> On question I''d REALLY like answered is this:
>>
>>
>>
>> Does Jimmy still have commit access to the main repos on github now
that
>> he''s left MS? Does anyone else outside MS have this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Orion
>>
>> On 9/08/2010, at 3:36 AM, Kevin Berridge <kevin.w.berridge at
gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  To Cory''s point about IronRuby''s credibility in the
Enterprise:
>>
>>
>>
>> I think its certainly true that if IronRuby is not a MS supported tool,
>> there will be shops that will not be able to use it.  On the other
hand,
>> there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if only they
>> understand what they could use it for and how.
>>
>>
>>
>> To date, the story of what IronRuby is "for" has been rather
weak.  I know
>> it''s a language, and so it''s possibilities are just
about endless, but
>> what
>> are the main areas we think people can derive significant benefit from
>> using
>> it?
>>
>>
>>
>> If IronRuby really does end up being primarily community driven, we
need
>> to
>> come up with a much better story around what it is for, and helping
people
>> get started with using it for those things.  This could help drive
>> adoption,
>> which could in turn help drive contributors.
>>
>>
>>
>> Some examples of things IronRuby may be ''for":
>>
>> 1. Unit Testing (
>>
http://kevin-berridge.blogspot.com/2010/08/testing-c-with-rspec-and-ruby.html
>> )
>>
>> 2. Embedded Scripting (
>>
http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2009/12/ironruby-rubyconf-2009-part-35.html
>> )
>>
>> 3. Silverlight (
>>
http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2008/08/walk-through-silverlight-flickr-client.html
>> )
>>
>> 4. ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Jimmy talked about #1 and #2 here:
>>
>>
>>
http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/04/mix10-part-3-using-dynamic-languages-in.html
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Kevin Berridge
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Slavo Furman <slavof at
gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I agree with Cory, too, but on the other hand it would be very helpful
>> if Microsoft (I mean someone who can speak for Microsoft) clearly say
>> what are they intentions with IronRuby (and maybe IronPython, too) for
>> the future.
>>
>> Are they "releasing IronRuby to the community"? Is Microsoft
like to
>> (officially) participate in future in IronRuby development? If so, in
>> what way? As a project owner? And so on...
>>
>> Only knowing in what situation we really are we can make our decisions
>> about what to do.
>>
>> More clarity will also help with using the technology, for example, I
>> am considering using IronRuby for one project and now I do not know
>> what to expect from future (questions like - will development of
>> IronRuby continue, what about Silverlight and Azure support, what
>> about v1.9 compatibility, ...) and it is now became problematic to
>> make some of decisions.
>>
>> thanks,
>> Slavo.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Eduardo Blumenfeld <lists at
ruby-forum.com>
>> wrote:
>> > I agree 100% with Cory, we just need to calm down, regroup, give
support
>> > to Tomas, make our opinions heard and continue using the
technology that
>> > helps us become way more productive in our jobs.
>> >
>> > On the other hand Jimmy will still be around, he just moved to
another
>> > job.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Eduardo Blumenfeld
>> >
>> > Cory Foy wrote:
>> >> Ok, I like to propose a pause in action.
>> >>
>> >> Here''s what we know. Jimmy has moved on, as has Jim.
Tomas is the main
>> >> person left, and from the emails we''ve received,
he''s only working on
>> >> it
>> >> part-time. I don''t know the politics of this specific
org, but being an
>> >> ex-softie I do have an idea, and that hunch is that the
politics that
>> >> caused the reshuffle were not a conspiracy theory against
IronRuby, but
>> >> just normal organization dysfunction and quarterly
reorganization.
>> >>
>> >> We also know thay we have a community of people who are
passionate
>> >> about
>> >> IronRuby, and a secondary wave of people driven into action by
the
>> >> events of the past day or so. It stands to reason, from work
I''ve done
>> >> in other communties, that one or two will end up being long
term
>> >> participants because of the new awareness.
>> >>
>> >> That said, I don''t think that what we should do right
now is fork it,
>> >> since IronRuby relies heavily on the DLR which
wouldn''t be controlled.
>> >> This is not to say that we take it off the table. Rather we
need to ask
>> >> ourselves what holes have now opened up that we need to fill:
>> >>
>> >> 1) Jimmy provided leadership and vision for the project.
We''ve now lost
>> >> that, and either Tomas will pick this up internally, or we
will need an
>> >> external person to run with the vision. Regardless, the person
will
>> >> have
>> >> to interface with and understand the vision from the Microsoft
side.
>> >>
>> >> 2) Tomas already mentioned needs like a CI and gatekeeper. I
bet there
>> >> are lots of other needs, and if this is truly a
community-owned
>> >> movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the remaining team
to
>> >> understand what else we''re missing.
>> >>
>> >> 3) IronRuby has likely taken a huge blow of credibility from
the
>> >> enterprise adoption side, because if it isn''t
supported by Microsoft
>> >> PSS, they will be unlikely to use it internally or in their
products.
>> >>
>> >> All three of these are vital points that we need to think
about as a
>> >> community. Someone is going to have to step up to take charge
of this -
>> >> and it''s not going to come from the Mono side. Tomas
may be willing to
>> >> take charge as much as possible - no one has asked him, and
that''s a
>> >> shame.
>> >>
>> >> IronRuby has not had a heart attack which requires CPR. That
means we
>> >> need to take a measured, levelheaded response as a community
and work
>> >> to
>> >> understand how we can help and how we can respond in a way
that makes
>> >> sense. We already know from Jimmy''s tweets that
he''s planning an email
>> >> for the group - how can we take advantage of the knowledge Jim
and
>> >> Jimmy
>> >> have, and support the work Tomas is doing?
>> >>
>> >> Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now, but no form
of
>> >> sprinting is going to help solve this. This is not a "we
have to take
>> >> action now before we lose the opportunity!" moment. The
code is there.
>> >> Many of the contributors are there, and know what is going on
>> >> internally. Let''s collaborate and find a way to make
this project a
>> >> real
>> >> success.
>> >>
>> >> Cory
>> >
>> > --
>> > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Ironruby-core mailing list
>> > Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>> > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>> >
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>>
>>
>>
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>


--
Daniele Alessandri