[Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"

Michael Letterle
2010-10-22T02:40:32Z

Best. Fucking. Decision. Ever.

Time for IronRuby to rock and roll. Let''s do this. \m/

On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy at schementi.com>
wrote:
> In-case anyone is living under a rock, this thread has just become much
more
> relevant; here''s why:
>
blogs.msdn.com/b/jasonz/archive/2010/10/21/new-components-and-contributors-for-ironpython-and-ironruby.aspx
> In short, Miguel de Icaza and I will be helping the community guide
> IronRuby, while us plus Michael Foord and Jeff Hardy will help guide
> IronPython. Also, IronRuby 1.1.1 has been released, which finally includes
> IronRuby tools for Visual Studio and the latest work towards 1.9
> compatibility. I believe Tomas will send mail about the specifics shortly.
> ~Jimmy
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy at
schementi.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Let''s not push Tomas or Jim to say anything; This is a big
enough issue
>> that I''m sure Microsoft''s PR firms are working on
this. Again, I suggest we
>> be patient for the next week.
>>
>> ~Jimmy
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Will Green <will at
hotgazpacho.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, we''ve seen a few plus-ones on talking to Microsoft
about their
>>> intentions for IronRuby.
>>> Tomas or Jim, since you''re both still on the inside,
perhaps one of you
>>> could speak, on behalf of the community, with someone at Microsoft
who can
>>> clarify for us what their intentions are?
>>> --
>>> Will Green
>>> http://hotgazpacho.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:42 AM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy at
schementi.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ah, after a nice restful weekend of casually looking at the
psychotic
>>>> twitter reactions, I think I owe this thread a little
attention.
>>>> First off, I appreciate the?overwhelming?support, and I think I
speak on
>>>> behalf of Jim and Tomas as well. Thank you for caring so much,
and for all
>>>> the personal best wishes. Also,?I appreciate everyone who
stepped in and
>>>> "cooled" down the situation. Those who see
opportunity in this are
>>>> well-suited to help shape the future of the project. But enough
with the
>>>> mushy stuff ...
>>>> The reality of open-source software is that corporate
sponsorship and
>>>> funding comes and goes, and it would appear the IronRuby
project is just
>>>> going through that normal cycle. I''m grateful to
Microsoft for not only
>>>> employing me, but funding IronRuby to the 1.1 release. Keep in
mind that
>>>> Microsoft has not officially said anything regarding IronRuby,
even it seems
>>>> my leaving Microsoft speaks volumes. So, let''s just
assume?what we suspect
>>>> to be true unless told otherwise.
>>>> This is a?monumental?opportunity for you all, the IronRuby
community, to
>>>> rally around something Microsoft invested in, enough to a
initial 1.0
>>>> release, and make it your own. However, there are two things we
should ask
>>>> Microsoft to commit to during this transition:
>>>>
>>>> Be clear about their intentions.?I?know?this will eventually
happen, but
>>>> I want to make it clear to all of you that this is the first
step.
>>>> Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity?(again, assuming they
don''t
>>>> plan on continuing funding).?Though IronRuby is licensed under
an
>>>> open-source license,?it is copyright Microsoft. IronRuby.net is
owned by
>>>> Microsoft. The GitHub "ironruby" organization is
managed by Microsoft. Etc,
>>>> etc. If the intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a
non-profit
>>>> foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be
ideal, so
>>>> that we don''t need to jointly own the copyright. There
also is precedence in
>>>> Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex
foundation, so
>>>> Tomas and Jim can continue to contribute.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, a complete transition to non-Microsoft
ownership. I''m
>>>> not the only person with a voice here, so if there is anything
else you''d
>>>> like to see Microsoft do for a smooth transition, please speak
up and let''s
>>>> discuss it.?I''m hoping my leaving announcement will
speed this process
>>>> along, so assume we have little time to provide
"demands".
>>>> After these things happen, then we can all start figuring how
to run the
>>>> project, put infrastructure in place, and start figuring out
what we need to
>>>> accomplish to release IronRuby 1.2. Or, if none if this happens
in the time
>>>> we''d like, we can start FeRb (as @robconery
essentially started to do =)).
>>>> But let''s try to be patient with IronRuby itself for
now. I''ve also hinted
>>>> at revisiting RubyCLR, but that will be a?separate?project (do
contact me if
>>>> you''re interested). Also, feel free to still have the
important
>>>> conversations brought up in the previous messages; in no way am
I suggesting
>>>> people stop talking.
>>>> Cory mentioned that my "leadership and vision" was
lost. I think you''re
>>>> taking my job too seriously =P ?... but joking aside, I just
wanted to move
>>>> back to New York and it was time to leave Microsoft, but not
Ruby or
>>>> IronRuby. So, for the?foreseeable?future, or unless someone
else wants to
>>>> step up, you can still count on me to be the face of IronRuby
and write
>>>> code. Also, my new job is in the .NET world still, so to stay
sane I''ll
>>>> still want to work on IronRuby. =)
>>>>
>>>> This is a challenging and emotional time indeed. Again, I
appreciate
>>>> everyone''s support and energy. Please keep the energy
high, but directed.
>>>> Continue discussing "why IronRuby". Work in your
private fork, take shots at
>>>> fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing;
they''ll eventually get
>>>> integrated back. Continue blogging about how you''re
using IronRuby. Show the
>>>> world that regardless of Microsoft''s position, the
community is what makes
>>>> the project live.
>>>> Now, discuss!
>>>> ~Jimmy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Jim Deville <jdeville at
microsoft.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> At this point Jimmy might, but the only one that should be
commiting
>>>>> there directly is the automated account. Once we get
official word from MS
>>>>> on what will happen with everything, I?d be happy to
discuss the fate of the
>>>>> IronRuby organization on Github J
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org
>>>>> [mailto:ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org] On Behalf
Of Orion Edwards
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:07 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> To: ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the
news"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. Rails on .NET
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this
particular
>>>>> scenario, but rails is still literally *years* ahead of MVC
in both maturity
>>>>> and thinking.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If we could get rails under ironruby easily deplorable to
iis, I think
>>>>> this would help a lot
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On question I''d REALLY like answered is this:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Does Jimmy still have commit access to the main repos on
github now
>>>>> that he''s left MS? Does anyone else outside MS
have this?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Orion
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/08/2010, at 3:36 AM, Kevin Berridge
<kevin.w.berridge at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> To Cory''s point about IronRuby''s
credibility in the Enterprise:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think its certainly true that if IronRuby is not a MS
supported tool,
>>>>> there will be shops that will not be able to use it. ?On
the other hand,
>>>>> there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if
only they
>>>>> understand what they could use it for and how.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To date, the story of what IronRuby is "for" has
been rather weak. ?I
>>>>> know it''s a language, and so it''s
possibilities are just about endless, but
>>>>> what are the main areas we think people can derive
significant benefit from
>>>>> using it?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If IronRuby really does end up being primarily community
driven, we
>>>>> need to come up with a much better story around what it is
for, and helping
>>>>> people get started with using it for those things. ?This
could help drive
>>>>> adoption, which could in turn help drive contributors.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Some examples of things IronRuby may be
''for":
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Unit Testing
>>>>>
(http://kevin-berridge.blogspot.com/2010/08/testing-c-with-rspec-and-ruby.html)
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Embedded Scripting
>>>>>
(http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2009/12/ironruby-rubyconf-2009-part-35.html)
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Silverlight
>>>>>
(http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2008/08/walk-through-silverlight-flickr-client.html)
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jimmy talked about #1 and #2 here:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/04/mix10-part-3-using-dynamic-languages-in.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Kevin Berridge
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Slavo Furman <slavof at
gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with Cory, too, but on the other hand it would be
very helpful
>>>>> if Microsoft (I mean someone who can speak for Microsoft)
clearly say
>>>>> what are they intentions with IronRuby (and maybe
IronPython, too) for
>>>>> the future.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are they "releasing IronRuby to the community"?
Is Microsoft like to
>>>>> (officially) participate in future in IronRuby development?
If so, in
>>>>> what way? As a project owner? And so on...
>>>>>
>>>>> Only knowing in what situation we really are we can make
our decisions
>>>>> about what to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> More clarity will also help with using the technology, for
example, I
>>>>> am considering using IronRuby for one project and now I do
not know
>>>>> what to expect from future (questions like - will
development of
>>>>> IronRuby continue, what about Silverlight and Azure
support, what
>>>>> about v1.9 compatibility, ...) and it is now became
problematic to
>>>>> make some of decisions.
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks,
>>>>> Slavo.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Eduardo Blumenfeld
>>>>> <lists at ruby-forum.com> wrote:
>>>>> > I agree 100% with Cory, we just need to calm down,
regroup, give
>>>>> > support
>>>>> > to Tomas, make our opinions heard and continue using
the technology
>>>>> > that
>>>>> > helps us become way more productive in our jobs.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On the other hand Jimmy will still be around, he just
moved to
>>>>> > another
>>>>> > job.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Regards,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Eduardo Blumenfeld
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Cory Foy wrote:
>>>>> >> Ok, I like to propose a pause in action.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Here''s what we know. Jimmy has moved on,
as has Jim. Tomas is the
>>>>> >> main
>>>>> >> person left, and from the emails we''ve
received, he''s only working
>>>>> >> on it
>>>>> >> part-time. I don''t know the politics of
this specific org, but being
>>>>> >> an
>>>>> >> ex-softie I do have an idea, and that hunch is
that the politics
>>>>> >> that
>>>>> >> caused the reshuffle were not a conspiracy theory
against IronRuby,
>>>>> >> but
>>>>> >> just normal organization dysfunction and quarterly
reorganization.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> We also know thay we have a community of people
who are passionate
>>>>> >> about
>>>>> >> IronRuby, and a secondary wave of people driven
into action by the
>>>>> >> events of the past day or so. It stands to reason,
from work I''ve
>>>>> >> done
>>>>> >> in other communties, that one or two will end up
being long term
>>>>> >> participants because of the new awareness.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> That said, I don''t think that what we
should do right now is fork
>>>>> >> it,
>>>>> >> since IronRuby relies heavily on the DLR which
wouldn''t be
>>>>> >> controlled.
>>>>> >> This is not to say that we take it off the table.
Rather we need to
>>>>> >> ask
>>>>> >> ourselves what holes have now opened up that we
need to fill:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 1) Jimmy provided leadership and vision for the
project. We''ve now
>>>>> >> lost
>>>>> >> that, and either Tomas will pick this up
internally, or we will need
>>>>> >> an
>>>>> >> external person to run with the vision.
Regardless, the person will
>>>>> >> have
>>>>> >> to interface with and understand the vision from
the Microsoft side.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 2) Tomas already mentioned needs like a CI and
gatekeeper. I bet
>>>>> >> there
>>>>> >> are lots of other needs, and if this is truly a
community-owned
>>>>> >> movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the
remaining team to
>>>>> >> understand what else we''re missing.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 3) IronRuby has likely taken a huge blow of
credibility from the
>>>>> >> enterprise adoption side, because if it
isn''t supported by Microsoft
>>>>> >> PSS, they will be unlikely to use it internally or
in their
>>>>> >> products.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> All three of these are vital points that we need
to think about as a
>>>>> >> community. Someone is going to have to step up to
take charge of
>>>>> >> this -
>>>>> >> and it''s not going to come from the Mono
side. Tomas may be willing
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> take charge as much as possible - no one has asked
him, and that''s a
>>>>> >> shame.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> IronRuby has not had a heart attack which requires
CPR. That means
>>>>> >> we
>>>>> >> need to take a measured, levelheaded response as a
community and
>>>>> >> work to
>>>>> >> understand how we can help and how we can respond
in a way that
>>>>> >> makes
>>>>> >> sense. We already know from Jimmy''s
tweets that he''s planning an
>>>>> >> email
>>>>> >> for the group - how can we take advantage of the
knowledge Jim and
>>>>> >> Jimmy
>>>>> >> have, and support the work Tomas is doing?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now,
but no form of
>>>>> >> sprinting is going to help solve this. This is not
a "we have to
>>>>> >> take
>>>>> >> action now before we lose the opportunity!"
moment. The code is
>>>>> >> there.
>>>>> >> Many of the contributors are there, and know what
is going on
>>>>> >> internally. Let''s collaborate and find a
way to make this project a
>>>>> >> real
>>>>> >> success.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Cory
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Ironruby-core mailing list
>>>>> > Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>>>>> > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>>>>> >
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ironruby-core mailing list
>>>>> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>>>>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ironruby-core mailing list
>>>>> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>>>>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ironruby-core mailing list
>>>>> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>>>>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>
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--
Michael Letterle
IronRuby MVP