[Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"

Robert Rouse
2010-08-09T20:16:53Z

If you''re looking for better Enterprise "adoption", I would
say the lack of
Visual Studio integration is a big sticking point. Perhaps you are implying
that when you talk about Microsoft support.

I built a few minor apps in IronRuby with Winforms as the GUI layer. It
worked, but it was not as "easy" as it was with C#.

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Michael Letterle <michael.letterle at
gmail.com
> wrote:

> My biggest concern at this point is that Microsoft make clear what
> their intentions are with regards to the IronRuby project, the state
> of limbo that exists in untenable.
>
> One of the concerns I hear often is how the DLR is handled as well...
> is that pretty stable at this point, I was under that impression.
>
> The saddest thing about this whole episode is really how unsurprising
> it is, at least for those that have been paying attention for a while.
>
> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:42 AM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy at
schementi.com>
> wrote:
> > Ah, after a nice restful weekend of casually looking at the psychotic
> > twitter reactions, I think I owe this thread a little attention.
> > First off, I appreciate the overwhelming support, and I think I speak
on
> > behalf of Jim and Tomas as well. Thank you for caring so much, and for
> all
> > the personal best wishes. Also, I appreciate everyone who stepped in
and
> > "cooled" down the situation. Those who see opportunity in
this are
> > well-suited to help shape the future of the project. But enough with
the
> > mushy stuff ...
> > The reality of open-source software is that corporate sponsorship and
> > funding comes and goes, and it would appear the IronRuby project is
just
> > going through that normal cycle. I''m grateful to Microsoft
for not only
> > employing me, but funding IronRuby to the 1.1 release. Keep in mind
that
> > Microsoft has not officially said anything regarding IronRuby, even it
> seems
> > my leaving Microsoft speaks volumes. So, let''s just assume
what we
> suspect
> > to be true unless told otherwise.
> > This is a monumental opportunity for you all, the IronRuby community,
to
> > rally around something Microsoft invested in, enough to a initial 1.0
> > release, and make it your own. However, there are two things we should
> ask
> > Microsoft to commit to during this transition:
> >
> > Be clear about their intentions. I know this will eventually happen,
but
> I
> > want to make it clear to all of you that this is the first step.
> > Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity (again, assuming they
don''t
> plan
> > on continuing funding). Though IronRuby is licensed under an
open-source
> > license, it is copyright Microsoft. IronRuby.net is owned by
Microsoft.
> The
> > GitHub "ironruby" organization is managed by Microsoft. Etc,
etc. If the
> > intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a non-profit foundation
> owning
> > IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal, so that we
don''t need
> to
> > jointly own the copyright. There also is precedence in Microsoft for
> > internal employees to donate to the CodePlex foundation, so Tomas and
Jim
> > can continue to contribute.
> >
> > In other words, a complete transition to non-Microsoft ownership.
I''m not
> > the only person with a voice here, so if there is anything else
you''d
> like
> > to see Microsoft do for a smooth transition, please speak up and
let''s
> > discuss it. I''m hoping my leaving announcement will speed
this process
> > along, so assume we have little time to provide "demands".
> > After these things happen, then we can all start figuring how to run
the
> > project, put infrastructure in place, and start figuring out what we
need
> to
> > accomplish to release IronRuby 1.2. Or, if none if this happens in the
> time
> > we''d like, we can start FeRb (as @robconery essentially
started to do
> =)).
> > But let''s try to be patient with IronRuby itself for now.
I''ve also
> hinted
> > at revisiting RubyCLR, but that will be a separate project (do contact
me
> if
> > you''re interested). Also, feel free to still have the
important
> > conversations brought up in the previous messages; in no way am I
> suggesting
> > people stop talking.
> > Cory mentioned that my "leadership and vision" was lost. I
think you''re
> > taking my job too seriously =P  ... but joking aside, I just wanted to
> move
> > back to New York and it was time to leave Microsoft, but not Ruby or
> > IronRuby. So, for the foreseeable future, or unless someone else wants
to
> > step up, you can still count on me to be the face of IronRuby and
write
> > code. Also, my new job is in the .NET world still, so to stay sane
I''ll
> > still want to work on IronRuby. =)
> >
> > This is a challenging and emotional time indeed. Again, I appreciate
> > everyone''s support and energy. Please keep the energy high,
but directed.
> > Continue discussing "why IronRuby". Work in your private
fork, take shots
> at
> > fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing; they''ll
eventually
> get
> > integrated back. Continue blogging about how you''re using
IronRuby. Show
> the
> > world that regardless of Microsoft''s position, the community
is what
> makes
> > the project live.
> > Now, discuss!
> > ~Jimmy
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Jim Deville <jdeville at
microsoft.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> At this point Jimmy might, but the only one that should be
commiting
> there
> >> directly is the automated account. Once we get official word from
MS on
> what
> >> will happen with everything, I?d be happy to discuss the fate of
the
> >> IronRuby organization on Github J
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org
> >> [mailto:ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Orion
Edwards
> >> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:07 PM
> >>
> >> To: ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 4. Rails on .NET
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular
> >> scenario, but rails is still literally *years* ahead of MVC in
both
> maturity
> >> and thinking.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If we could get rails under ironruby easily deplorable to iis, I
think
> >> this would help a lot
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On question I''d REALLY like answered is this:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Does Jimmy still have commit access to the main repos on github
now that
> >> he''s left MS? Does anyone else outside MS have this?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks, Orion
> >>
> >> On 9/08/2010, at 3:36 AM, Kevin Berridge <kevin.w.berridge at
gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> To Cory''s point about IronRuby''s credibility in
the Enterprise:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I think its certainly true that if IronRuby is not a MS supported
tool,
> >> there will be shops that will not be able to use it.  On the other
hand,
> >> there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if only
they
> >> understand what they could use it for and how.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To date, the story of what IronRuby is "for" has been
rather weak.  I
> know
> >> it''s a language, and so it''s possibilities are
just about endless, but
> what
> >> are the main areas we think people can derive significant benefit
from
> using
> >> it?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If IronRuby really does end up being primarily community driven,
we need
> >> to come up with a much better story around what it is for, and
helping
> >> people get started with using it for those things.  This could
help
> drive
> >> adoption, which could in turn help drive contributors.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Some examples of things IronRuby may be ''for":
> >>
> >> 1. Unit Testing
> >> (
>
http://kevin-berridge.blogspot.com/2010/08/testing-c-with-rspec-and-ruby.html
> )
> >>
> >> 2. Embedded Scripting
> >> (
> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2009/12/ironruby-rubyconf-2009-part-35.html
> )
> >>
> >> 3. Silverlight
> >> (
>
http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2008/08/walk-through-silverlight-flickr-client.html
> )
> >>
> >> 4. ?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Jimmy talked about #1 and #2 here:
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/04/mix10-part-3-using-dynamic-languages-in.html
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Kevin Berridge
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Slavo Furman <slavof at
gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I agree with Cory, too, but on the other hand it would be very
helpful
> >> if Microsoft (I mean someone who can speak for Microsoft) clearly
say
> >> what are they intentions with IronRuby (and maybe IronPython, too)
for
> >> the future.
> >>
> >> Are they "releasing IronRuby to the community"? Is
Microsoft like to
> >> (officially) participate in future in IronRuby development? If so,
in
> >> what way? As a project owner? And so on...
> >>
> >> Only knowing in what situation we really are we can make our
decisions
> >> about what to do.
> >>
> >> More clarity will also help with using the technology, for
example, I
> >> am considering using IronRuby for one project and now I do not
know
> >> what to expect from future (questions like - will development of
> >> IronRuby continue, what about Silverlight and Azure support, what
> >> about v1.9 compatibility, ...) and it is now became problematic to
> >> make some of decisions.
> >>
> >> thanks,
> >> Slavo.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Eduardo Blumenfeld <
> lists at ruby-forum.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > I agree 100% with Cory, we just need to calm down, regroup,
give
> support
> >> > to Tomas, make our opinions heard and continue using the
technology
> that
> >> > helps us become way more productive in our jobs.
> >> >
> >> > On the other hand Jimmy will still be around, he just moved
to another
> >> > job.
> >> >
> >> > Regards,
> >> >
> >> > Eduardo Blumenfeld
> >> >
> >> > Cory Foy wrote:
> >> >> Ok, I like to propose a pause in action.
> >> >>
> >> >> Here''s what we know. Jimmy has moved on, as has
Jim. Tomas is the
> main
> >> >> person left, and from the emails we''ve received,
he''s only working on
> >> >> it
> >> >> part-time. I don''t know the politics of this
specific org, but being
> an
> >> >> ex-softie I do have an idea, and that hunch is that the
politics that
> >> >> caused the reshuffle were not a conspiracy theory against
IronRuby,
> but
> >> >> just normal organization dysfunction and quarterly
reorganization.
> >> >>
> >> >> We also know thay we have a community of people who are
passionate
> >> >> about
> >> >> IronRuby, and a secondary wave of people driven into
action by the
> >> >> events of the past day or so. It stands to reason, from
work I''ve
> done
> >> >> in other communties, that one or two will end up being
long term
> >> >> participants because of the new awareness.
> >> >>
> >> >> That said, I don''t think that what we should do
right now is fork it,
> >> >> since IronRuby relies heavily on the DLR which
wouldn''t be
> controlled.
> >> >> This is not to say that we take it off the table. Rather
we need to
> ask
> >> >> ourselves what holes have now opened up that we need to
fill:
> >> >>
> >> >> 1) Jimmy provided leadership and vision for the project.
We''ve now
> lost
> >> >> that, and either Tomas will pick this up internally, or
we will need
> an
> >> >> external person to run with the vision. Regardless, the
person will
> >> >> have
> >> >> to interface with and understand the vision from the
Microsoft side.
> >> >>
> >> >> 2) Tomas already mentioned needs like a CI and
gatekeeper. I bet
> there
> >> >> are lots of other needs, and if this is truly a
community-owned
> >> >> movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the remaining
team to
> >> >> understand what else we''re missing.
> >> >>
> >> >> 3) IronRuby has likely taken a huge blow of credibility
from the
> >> >> enterprise adoption side, because if it isn''t
supported by Microsoft
> >> >> PSS, they will be unlikely to use it internally or in
their products.
> >> >>
> >> >> All three of these are vital points that we need to think
about as a
> >> >> community. Someone is going to have to step up to take
charge of this
> -
> >> >> and it''s not going to come from the Mono side.
Tomas may be willing
> to
> >> >> take charge as much as possible - no one has asked him,
and that''s a
> >> >> shame.
> >> >>
> >> >> IronRuby has not had a heart attack which requires CPR.
That means we
> >> >> need to take a measured, levelheaded response as a
community and work
> >> >> to
> >> >> understand how we can help and how we can respond in a
way that makes
> >> >> sense. We already know from Jimmy''s tweets that
he''s planning an
> email
> >> >> for the group - how can we take advantage of the
knowledge Jim and
> >> >> Jimmy
> >> >> have, and support the work Tomas is doing?
> >> >>
> >> >> Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now, but no
form of
> >> >> sprinting is going to help solve this. This is not a
"we have to take
> >> >> action now before we lose the opportunity!" moment.
The code is
> there.
> >> >> Many of the contributors are there, and know what is
going on
> >> >> internally. Let''s collaborate and find a way to
make this project a
> >> >> real
> >> >> success.
> >> >>
> >> >> Cory
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Ironruby-core mailing list
> >> > Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> >> > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ironruby-core mailing list
> >> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> >> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ironruby-core mailing list
> >> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> >> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ironruby-core mailing list
> >> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> >> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ironruby-core mailing list
> > Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Letterle
> IronRuby MVP
> http://blog.prokrams.com
> _______________________________________________
> Ironruby-core mailing list
> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>
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