Hi all,> Am 03.04.2021 um 22:39 schrieb Ed Maste <emaste at freebsd.org>: > I'm happy to make a port for it if anyone needs it. Comments?A bit late to the party, but my take is: please just don't. I absolutely freaked out when Apple removed the telnet and ftp clients from Mac OS and I needed to reinstall them via MacPorts. People who manage any larger collection of networking gear *depend* on these outdated but simple services. Client and server side alike. TFTP is not going away, neither is FTP. I'm dead serious. Remote media via Supermicro IPMI in 2021? SMB1. Firmware updates for my UPS? FTP. Scanner/printer/fax all-in-one thingy? Uploads received fax transmissions via FTP. PBX? Uploads usage reports via FTP. This stuff is here to stay. In local networks, of course. But still even on "the Internet", FTP is the most used method for customers of static website hosting. You cannot teach these people what an SSH key is. Just my experience, but backed by a load of customer interactions over more than 20 years ... Kind regards, Patrick -- punkt.de GmbH Patrick M. Hausen .infrastructure Kaiserallee 13a 76133 Karlsruhe Tel. +49 721 9109500 https://infrastructure.punkt.de info at punkt.de AG Mannheim 108285 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: J?rgen Egeling, Daniel Lienert, Fabian Stein -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 488 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/attachments/20210405/ade219b6/attachment.sig>
On Mon, 5 Apr 2021, Patrick M. Hausen wrote:> Hi all, > >> Am 03.04.2021 um 22:39 schrieb Ed Maste <emaste at freebsd.org>: >> I'm happy to make a port for it if anyone needs it. Comments? > > A bit late to the party, but my take is: please just don't. > > I absolutely freaked out when Apple removed the telnet and ftp clients > from Mac OS and I needed to reinstall them via MacPorts. > > People who manage any larger collection of networking gear *depend* > on these outdated but simple services. Client and server side alike. > > TFTP is not going away, neither is FTP. I'm dead serious. Remote media > via Supermicro IPMI in 2021? SMB1. Firmware updates for my UPS? FTP. > Scanner/printer/fax all-in-one thingy? Uploads received fax transmissions > via FTP. PBX? Uploads usage reports via FTP. This stuff is here to stay. > In local networks, of course. > > But still even on "the Internet", FTP is the most used method for customers > of static website hosting. You cannot teach these people what an SSH key is. > Just my experience, but backed by a load of customer interactions over more > than 20 years ... > > Kind regards, > Patrick > -- >Hear! Hear! Although I don't have any statistics to back this up this has been my experience as well. Sincerely, Ted Hatfield
Hi,> On 5 Apr 2021, at 20:01, Patrick M. Hausen <hausen at punkt.de> wrote: > > Hi all, > >> Am 03.04.2021 um 22:39 schrieb Ed Maste <emaste at freebsd.org>: >> I'm happy to make a port for it if anyone needs it. Comments? > > A bit late to the party, but my take is: please just don't.+1 (later still)> I absolutely freaked out when Apple removed the telnet and ftp clients > from Mac OS and I needed to reinstall them via MacPorts. > > People who manage any larger collection of networking gear *depend* > on these outdated but simple services. Client and server side alike. > > TFTP is not going away, neither is FTP. I'm dead serious. Remote media > via Supermicro IPMI in 2021? SMB1. Firmware updates for my UPS? FTP. > Scanner/printer/fax all-in-one thingy? Uploads received fax transmissions > via FTP. PBX? Uploads usage reports via FTP. This stuff is here to stay. > In local networks, of course. > > But still even on "the Internet", FTP is the most used method for customers > of static website hosting. You cannot teach these people what an SSH key is. > Just my experience, but backed by a load of customer interactions over more > than 20 years ... > > Kind regards, > Patrick > -- > punkt.de GmbH > Patrick M. Hausen > .infrastructure > > Kaiserallee 13a > 76133 Karlsruhe > > Tel. +49 721 9109500 > > https://infrastructure.punkt.de > info at punkt.de > > AG Mannheim 108285 > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: J?rgen Egeling, Daniel Lienert, Fabian Stein >-- Bob Bishop rb at gid.co.uk
> On Apr 5, 2021, at 3:01 PM, Patrick M. Hausen <hausen at punkt.de> wrote: > > Hi all, > > I absolutely freaked out when Apple removed the telnet and ftp clients > from Mac OS and I needed to reinstall them via MacPorts.Yep, and what I think many miss IRT to the stock ftpd is that it?s dumb simple and ?just works?. For web hosting stuff I generally use something like Proftpd or vsftpd, and, IMHO, that?s when you should have to expend brain power to choose something from ports - when your use-case (supporting hosting customers, virtual users, etc.) requires a non-trivial ftp implementation. Also I can count on my left hand the number of web hosting customers I?ve run into that actually use scp for sftp or even know what that is. They?re using the same ftp client they?ve always used (ws-ftp quite often) and the last thing they want to do is learn something new.> People who manage any larger collection of networking gear *depend* > on these outdated but simple services. Client and server side alike.I frequently work with people who have limited budgets, and I don?t think I?m alone in that. Ebay is chock full of high-volume sellers turning over old networking gear that is amazingly good stuff that?s just outdated. I can grab a 48 port GigE switch with 10gb/s uplink ports for under $200. The market is gigantic, and putting old stuff to use on an internal network with proper safeguards is not totally crazy. Customers can have multiple fully-loaded spares on-site for less than what a year of SmartNet coverage would cost. My server platform of choice when I want a ?support server? for this old stuff has always been FreeBSD. Stock tftpd and ftpd are wonderful, and anyone professing that those two tiny daemons are ?bloat? just hasn?t used Linux.> TFTP is not going away, neither is FTP. I'm dead serious. Remote media > via Supermicro IPMI in 2021? SMB1. Firmware updates for my UPS? FTP. > Scanner/printer/fax all-in-one thingy? Uploads received fax transmissions > via FTP. PBX? Uploads usage reports via FTP. This stuff is here to stay. > In local networks, of course.Preach! And plenty of VoIP gear too! There are absolutely real world uses for these simple daemons, and I trust some stock FreeBSD daemon like this more than something I might fetch from ports - both in terms of knowing it?s had some kind of auditing/maintenance by qualified people and that it?s going to have an accurate manpage, sane defaults, and remain relatively simple/minimal. I think as everyone has moved to the cloud and devops and all that they forget about sysadmins standing up servers as simple utility boxes that support a bunch of other gear.> But still even on "the Internet", FTP is the most used method for customers > of static website hosting. You cannot teach these people what an SSH key is. > Just my experience, but backed by a load of customer interactions over more > than 20 years ?I think some people mean well, and they imagine that if we just tell people to move to some monstrosity like Filezilla the problem is solved, but realistically it?s just a good way to lose paying customers. Charles> > Kind regards, > Patrick > -- > punkt.de GmbH > Patrick M. Hausen > .infrastructure > > Kaiserallee 13a > 76133 Karlsruhe > > Tel. +49 721 9109500 > > https://infrastructure.punkt.de > info at punkt.de > > AG Mannheim 108285 > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: J?rgen Egeling, Daniel Lienert, Fabian Stein >-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 528 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/attachments/20210405/c8523b32/attachment.sig>
Am 05.04.2021 um 21:01 schrieb Patrick M. Hausen <hausen at punkt.de>:> > But still even on "the Internet", FTP is the most used method for customers > of static website hosting. You cannot teach these people what an SSH key is. > Just my experience, but backed by a load of customer interactions over more > than 20 years ...Strato did disable FTP access over a year ago, and instructed customers on how to use SSH-based access instead, so it's definitely possible, and people are moving towards more secure protocols, even when (non-technical) end users are affected. Srefan -- Stefan Bethke <stb at lassitu.de> Fon +49 151 14070811 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 488 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/attachments/20210406/8a4083f5/attachment.sig>
On 2021-04-05 12:01, Patrick M. Hausen wrote:> Hi all, > >> Am 03.04.2021 um 22:39 schrieb Ed Maste <emaste at freebsd.org>: >> I'm happy to make a port for it if anyone needs it. Comments? > > A bit late to the party, but my take is: please just don't. > > I absolutely freaked out when Apple removed the telnet and ftp clients > from Mac OS and I needed to reinstall them via MacPorts.That route uses an inferior (opinion) version of ftp(1) && ftpd(8). It might interest you to know that the FreeBSD versions that (currently) already come with FreeBSD can be copied over to your Mac. I *too* became upset when I found MacOS w/o these, and on a hunch tried it, and worked as intended/expected. The FreeBSD version(s) are more "featurefull" than those that originally came on the Mac, or the GNU one that is supplied w/MacPorts.> > People who manage any larger collection of networking gear *depend* > on these outdated but simple services. Client and server side alike. > > TFTP is not going away, neither is FTP. I'm dead serious. Remote media > via Supermicro IPMI in 2021? SMB1. Firmware updates for my UPS? FTP. > Scanner/printer/fax all-in-one thingy? Uploads received fax transmissions > via FTP. PBX? Uploads usage reports via FTP. This stuff is here to stay. > In local networks, of course. > > But still even on "the Internet", FTP is the most used method for customers > of static website hosting. You cannot teach these people what an SSH key is. > Just my experience, but backed by a load of customer interactions over more > than 20 years ... > > Kind regards, > Patrick > -- > punkt.de GmbH > Patrick M. Hausen > .infrastructure > > Kaiserallee 13a > 76133 Karlsruhe > > Tel. +49 721 9109500 > > https://infrastructure.punkt.de > info at punkt.de > > AG Mannheim 108285 > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: J?rgen Egeling, Daniel Lienert, Fabian Stein--Chris