Virtualization - Dec 2021 - vdpa legacy guest support (was Re: [PATCH] vdpa/mlx5: set_features should allow reset to zero)

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 12:52:20PM -0800, Si-Wei Liu
wrote:
> 
> 
> On 12/14/2021 6:06 PM, Jason Wang wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 9:05 AM Si-Wei Liu <si-wei.liu at
oracle.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On 12/13/2021 9:06 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 05:59:45PM -0800, Si-Wei Liu wrote:
> > > > > On 12/12/2021 1:26 AM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > > > > > On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 05:44:15PM -0800, Si-Wei
Liu wrote:
> > > > > > > Sorry for reviving this ancient thread. I was
kinda lost for the conclusion
> > > > > > > it ended up with. I have the following
questions,
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 1. legacy guest support: from the past
conversations it doesn't seem the
> > > > > > > support will be completely dropped from the
table, is my understanding
> > > > > > > correct? Actually we're interested in
supporting virtio v0.95 guest for x86,
> > > > > > > which is backed by the spec at
> > > > > > >
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ozlabs.org/*rusty/virtio-spec/virtio-0.9.5.pdf__;fg!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!dTKmzJwwRsFM7BtSuTDu1cNly5n4XCotH0WYmidzGqHSXt40i7ZU43UcNg7GYxZg$
. Though I'm not sure
> > > > > > > if there's request/need to support wilder
legacy virtio versions earlier
> > > > > > > beyond.
> > > > > > I personally feel it's less work to add in
kernel than try to
> > > > > > work around it in userspace. Jason feels
differently.
> > > > > > Maybe post the patches and this will prove to
Jason it's not
> > > > > > too terrible?
> > > > > I suppose if the vdpa vendor does support 0.95 in the
datapath and ring
> > > > > layout level and is limited to x86 only, there should
be easy way out.
> > > > Note a subtle difference: what matters is that guest, not
host is x86.
> > > > Matters for emulators which might reorder memory accesses.
> > > > I guess this enforcement belongs in QEMU then?
> > > Right, I mean to get started, the initial guest driver support
and the
> > > corresponding QEMU support for transitional vdpa backend can be
limited
> > > to x86 guest/host only. Since the config space is emulated in
QEMU, I
> > > suppose it's not hard to enforce in QEMU.
> > It's more than just config space, most devices have headers before
the buffer.
> The ordering in datapath (data VQs) would have to rely on vendor's
support.
> Since ORDER_PLATFORM is pretty new (v1.1), I guess vdpa h/w vendor nowadays
> can/should well support the case when ORDER_PLATFORM is not acked by the
> driver (actually this feature is filtered out by the QEMU vhost-vdpa driver
> today), even with v1.0 spec conforming and modern only vDPA device. The
> control VQ is implemented in software in the kernel, which can be easily
> accommodated/fixed when needed.
> 
> > 
> > > QEMU can drive GET_LEGACY,
> > > GET_ENDIAN et al ioctls in advance to get the capability from the
> > > individual vendor driver. For that, we need another negotiation
protocol
> > > similar to vhost_user's protocol_features between the vdpa
kernel and
> > > QEMU, way before the guest driver is ever probed and its feature
> > > negotiation kicks in. Not sure we need a GET_MEMORY_ORDER ioctl
call
> > > from the device, but we can assume weak ordering for legacy at
this
> > > point (x86 only)?
> > I'm lost here, we have get_features() so:
> I assume here you refer to get_device_features() that Eli just changed the
> name.
> > 
> > 1) VERSION_1 means the device uses LE if provided, otherwise natvie
> > 2) ORDER_PLATFORM means device requires platform ordering
> > 
> > Any reason for having a new API for this?
> Are you going to enforce all vDPA hardware vendors to support the
> transitional model for legacy guest? meaning guest not acknowledging
> VERSION_1 would use the legacy interfaces captured in the spec section 7.4
> (regarding ring layout, native endianness, message framing, vq alignment of
> 4096, 32bit feature, no features_ok bit in status, IO port interface i.e.
> all the things) instead? Noted we don't yet have a
set_device_features()
> that allows the vdpa device to tell whether it is operating in transitional
> or modern-only mode. For software virtio, all support for the legacy part
in
> a transitional model has been built up there already, however, it's not
easy
> for vDPA vendors to implement all the requirements for an all-or-nothing
> legacy guest support (big endian guest for example). To these vendors, the
> legacy support within a transitional model is more of feature to them and
> it's best to leave some flexibility for them to implement partial
support
> for legacy. That in turn calls out the need for a vhost-user protocol
> feature like negotiation API that can prohibit those unsupported guest
> setups to as early as backend_init before launching the VM.
Right. Of note is the fact that it's a spec bug which I
hope yet to fix, though due to existing guest code the
fix won't be complete.

WRT ioctls, One thing we can do though is abuse set_features
where it's called by QEMU early on with just the VERSION_1
bit set, to distinguish between legacy and modern
interface. This before config space accesses and FEATURES_OK.

Halil has been working on this, pls take a look and maybe help him out.
> 
> > 
> > > > > I
> > > > > checked with Eli and other Mellanox/NVDIA folks for
hardware/firmware level
> > > > > 0.95 support, it seems all the ingredient had been
there already dated back
> > > > > to the DPDK days. The only major thing limiting is in
the vDPA software that
> > > > > the current vdpa core has the assumption around
VIRTIO_F_ACCESS_PLATFORM for
> > > > > a few DMA setup ops, which is virtio 1.0 only.
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > 2. suppose some form of legacy guest support
needs to be there, how do we
> > > > > > > deal with the bogus assumption below in
vdpa_get_config() in the short term?
> > > > > > > It looks one of the intuitive fix is to move
the vdpa_set_features call out
> > > > > > > of vdpa_get_config() to vdpa_set_config().
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >            /*
> > > > > > >             * Config accesses aren't
supposed to trigger before features are
> > > > > > > set.
> > > > > > >             * If it does happen we assume a
legacy guest.
> > > > > > >             */
> > > > > > >            if (!vdev->features_valid)
> > > > > > >                    vdpa_set_features(vdev,
0);
> > > > > > >            ops->get_config(vdev, offset,
buf, len);
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I can post a patch to fix 2) if there's
consensus already reached.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > -Siwei
> > > > > > I'm not sure how important it is to change
that.
> > > > > > In any case it only affects transitional devices,
right?
> > > > > > Legacy only should not care ...
> > > > > Yes I'd like to distinguish legacy driver (suppose
it is 0.95) against the
> > > > > modern one in a transitional device model rather than
being legacy only.
> > > > > That way a v0.95 and v1.0 supporting vdpa parent can
support both types of
> > > > > guests without having to reconfigure. Or are you
suggesting limit to legacy
> > > > > only at the time of vdpa creation would simplify the
implementation a lot?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > -Siwei
> > > > I don't know for sure. Take a look at the work Halil was
doing
> > > > to try and support transitional devices with BE guests.
> > > Hmmm, we can have those endianness ioctls defined but the initial
QEMU
> > > implementation can be started to support x86 guest/host with
little
> > > endian and weak memory ordering first. The real trick is to
detect
> > > legacy guest - I am not sure if it's feasible to shift all
the legacy
> > > detection work to QEMU, or the kernel has to be part of the
detection
> > > (e.g. the kick before DRIVER_OK thing we have to duplicate the
tracking
> > > effort in QEMU) as well. Let me take a further look and get back.
> > Michael may think differently but I think doing this in Qemu is much
easier.
> I think the key is whether we position emulating legacy interfaces in QEMU
> doing translation on top of a v1.0 modern-only device in the kernel, or we
> allow vdpa core (or you can say vhost-vdpa) and vendor driver to support a
> transitional model in the kernel that is able to work for both v0.95 and
> v1.0 drivers, with some slight aid from QEMU for
> detecting/emulation/shadowing (for e.g CVQ, I/O port relay). I guess for
the
> former we still rely on vendor for a performant data vqs implementation,
> leaving the question to what it may end up eventually in the kernel is
> effectively the latter).
> 
> Thanks,
> -Siwei

My suggestion is post the kernel patches, and we can evaluate
how much work they are.
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Meanwhile, I'll check internally to see if a legacy only
model would
> > > work. Thanks.
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > -Siwei
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > > > On 3/2/2021 2:53 AM, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 2021/3/2 5:47 ??, Michael S. Tsirkin
wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 01, 2021 at 11:56:50AM
+0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On 2021/3/1 5:34 ??, Michael
S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at
10:24:41AM -0800, Si-Wei Liu wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Detecting it
isn't enough though, we will need a new ioctl to notify
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the kernel that
it's a legacy guest. Ugh :(
> > > > > > > > > > > > Well, although I
think adding an ioctl is doable, may I
> > > > > > > > > > > > know what the use
> > > > > > > > > > > > case there will be
for kernel to leverage such info
> > > > > > > > > > > > directly? Is there a
> > > > > > > > > > > > case QEMU can't
do with dedicate ioctls later if there's indeed
> > > > > > > > > > > > differentiation
(legacy v.s. modern) needed?
> > > > > > > > > > > BTW a good API could be
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > #define VHOST_SET_ENDIAN
_IOW(VHOST_VIRTIO, ?, int)
> > > > > > > > > > > #define VHOST_GET_ENDIAN
_IOW(VHOST_VIRTIO, ?, int)
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > we did it per vring but
maybe that was a mistake ...
> > > > > > > > > > Actually, I wonder whether
it's good time to just not support
> > > > > > > > > > legacy driver
> > > > > > > > > > for vDPA. Consider:
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 1) It's definition is
no-normative
> > > > > > > > > > 2) A lot of budren of codes
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > So qemu can still present the
legacy device since the config
> > > > > > > > > > space or other
> > > > > > > > > > stuffs that is presented by
vhost-vDPA is not expected to be
> > > > > > > > > > accessed by
> > > > > > > > > > guest directly. Qemu can do
the endian conversion when necessary
> > > > > > > > > > in this
> > > > > > > > > > case?
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Overall I would be fine with this
approach but we need to avoid breaking
> > > > > > > > > working userspace, qemu releases
with vdpa support are out there and
> > > > > > > > > seem to work for people. Any
changes need to take that into account
> > > > > > > > > and document compatibility
concerns.
> > > > > > > > Agree, let me check.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > >      I note that any hardware
> > > > > > > > > implementation is already broken
for legacy except on platforms with
> > > > > > > > > strong ordering which might be
helpful in reducing the scope.
> > > > > > > > Yes.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > >

On 12/15/2021 1:33 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 12:52:20PM -0800, Si-Wei Liu wrote:
>>
>> On 12/14/2021 6:06 PM, Jason Wang wrote:
>>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 9:05 AM Si-Wei Liu <si-wei.liu at
oracle.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 12/13/2021 9:06 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 05:59:45PM -0800, Si-Wei Liu wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/12/2021 1:26 AM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 05:44:15PM -0800, Si-Wei
Liu wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sorry for reviving this ancient thread. I was
kinda lost for the conclusion
>>>>>>>> it ended up with. I have the following
questions,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. legacy guest support: from the past
conversations it doesn't seem the
>>>>>>>> support will be completely dropped from the
table, is my understanding
>>>>>>>> correct? Actually we're interested in
supporting virtio v0.95 guest for x86,
>>>>>>>> which is backed by the spec at
>>>>>>>>
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ozlabs.org/*rusty/virtio-spec/virtio-0.9.5.pdf__;fg!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!dTKmzJwwRsFM7BtSuTDu1cNly5n4XCotH0WYmidzGqHSXt40i7ZU43UcNg7GYxZg$
. Though I'm not sure
>>>>>>>> if there's request/need to support wilder
legacy virtio versions earlier
>>>>>>>> beyond.
>>>>>>> I personally feel it's less work to add in
kernel than try to
>>>>>>> work around it in userspace. Jason feels
differently.
>>>>>>> Maybe post the patches and this will prove to Jason
it's not
>>>>>>> too terrible?
>>>>>> I suppose if the vdpa vendor does support 0.95 in the
datapath and ring
>>>>>> layout level and is limited to x86 only, there should
be easy way out.
>>>>> Note a subtle difference: what matters is that guest, not
host is x86.
>>>>> Matters for emulators which might reorder memory accesses.
>>>>> I guess this enforcement belongs in QEMU then?
>>>> Right, I mean to get started, the initial guest driver support
and the
>>>> corresponding QEMU support for transitional vdpa backend can be
limited
>>>> to x86 guest/host only. Since the config space is emulated in
QEMU, I
>>>> suppose it's not hard to enforce in QEMU.
>>> It's more than just config space, most devices have headers
before the buffer.
>> The ordering in datapath (data VQs) would have to rely on vendor's
support.
>> Since ORDER_PLATFORM is pretty new (v1.1), I guess vdpa h/w vendor
nowadays
>> can/should well support the case when ORDER_PLATFORM is not acked by
the
>> driver (actually this feature is filtered out by the QEMU vhost-vdpa
driver
>> today), even with v1.0 spec conforming and modern only vDPA device. The
>> control VQ is implemented in software in the kernel, which can be
easily
>> accommodated/fixed when needed.
>>
>>>> QEMU can drive GET_LEGACY,
>>>> GET_ENDIAN et al ioctls in advance to get the capability from
the
>>>> individual vendor driver. For that, we need another negotiation
protocol
>>>> similar to vhost_user's protocol_features between the vdpa
kernel and
>>>> QEMU, way before the guest driver is ever probed and its
feature
>>>> negotiation kicks in. Not sure we need a GET_MEMORY_ORDER ioctl
call
>>>> from the device, but we can assume weak ordering for legacy at
this
>>>> point (x86 only)?
>>> I'm lost here, we have get_features() so:
>> I assume here you refer to get_device_features() that Eli just changed
the
>> name.
>>> 1) VERSION_1 means the device uses LE if provided, otherwise natvie
>>> 2) ORDER_PLATFORM means device requires platform ordering
>>>
>>> Any reason for having a new API for this?
>> Are you going to enforce all vDPA hardware vendors to support the
>> transitional model for legacy guest? meaning guest not acknowledging
>> VERSION_1 would use the legacy interfaces captured in the spec section
7.4
>> (regarding ring layout, native endianness, message framing, vq
alignment of
>> 4096, 32bit feature, no features_ok bit in status, IO port interface
i.e.
>> all the things) instead? Noted we don't yet have a
set_device_features()
>> that allows the vdpa device to tell whether it is operating in
transitional
>> or modern-only mode. For software virtio, all support for the legacy
part in
>> a transitional model has been built up there already, however, it's
not easy
>> for vDPA vendors to implement all the requirements for an
all-or-nothing
>> legacy guest support (big endian guest for example). To these vendors,
the
>> legacy support within a transitional model is more of feature to them
and
>> it's best to leave some flexibility for them to implement partial
support
>> for legacy. That in turn calls out the need for a vhost-user protocol
>> feature like negotiation API that can prohibit those unsupported guest
>> setups to as early as backend_init before launching the VM.
> Right. Of note is the fact that it's a spec bug which I
> hope yet to fix, though due to existing guest code the
> fix won't be complete.
I thought at one point you pointed out to me that the spec does allow 
config space read before claiming features_ok, and only config write 
before features_ok is prohibited. I haven't read up the full thread of 
Halil's VERSION_1 for transitional big endian device yet, but what is 
the spec bug you hope to fix?
>
> WRT ioctls, One thing we can do though is abuse set_features
> where it's called by QEMU early on with just the VERSION_1
> bit set, to distinguish between legacy and modern
> interface. This before config space accesses and FEATURES_OK.
>
> Halil has been working on this, pls take a look and maybe help him out.
Interesting thread, am reading now and see how I may leverage or help there.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> checked with Eli and other Mellanox/NVDIA folks for
hardware/firmware level
>>>>>> 0.95 support, it seems all the ingredient had been
there already dated back
>>>>>> to the DPDK days. The only major thing limiting is in
the vDPA software that
>>>>>> the current vdpa core has the assumption around
VIRTIO_F_ACCESS_PLATFORM for
>>>>>> a few DMA setup ops, which is virtio 1.0 only.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. suppose some form of legacy guest support
needs to be there, how do we
>>>>>>>> deal with the bogus assumption below in
vdpa_get_config() in the short term?
>>>>>>>> It looks one of the intuitive fix is to move
the vdpa_set_features call out
>>>>>>>> of vdpa_get_config() to vdpa_set_config().
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>             /*
>>>>>>>>              * Config accesses aren't
supposed to trigger before features are
>>>>>>>> set.
>>>>>>>>              * If it does happen we assume a
legacy guest.
>>>>>>>>              */
>>>>>>>>             if (!vdev->features_valid)
>>>>>>>>                     vdpa_set_features(vdev, 0);
>>>>>>>>             ops->get_config(vdev, offset,
buf, len);
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can post a patch to fix 2) if there's
consensus already reached.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> -Siwei
>>>>>>> I'm not sure how important it is to change
that.
>>>>>>> In any case it only affects transitional devices,
right?
>>>>>>> Legacy only should not care ...
>>>>>> Yes I'd like to distinguish legacy driver (suppose
it is 0.95) against the
>>>>>> modern one in a transitional device model rather than
being legacy only.
>>>>>> That way a v0.95 and v1.0 supporting vdpa parent can
support both types of
>>>>>> guests without having to reconfigure. Or are you
suggesting limit to legacy
>>>>>> only at the time of vdpa creation would simplify the
implementation a lot?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> -Siwei
>>>>> I don't know for sure. Take a look at the work Halil
was doing
>>>>> to try and support transitional devices with BE guests.
>>>> Hmmm, we can have those endianness ioctls defined but the
initial QEMU
>>>> implementation can be started to support x86 guest/host with
little
>>>> endian and weak memory ordering first. The real trick is to
detect
>>>> legacy guest - I am not sure if it's feasible to shift all
the legacy
>>>> detection work to QEMU, or the kernel has to be part of the
detection
>>>> (e.g. the kick before DRIVER_OK thing we have to duplicate the
tracking
>>>> effort in QEMU) as well. Let me take a further look and get
back.
>>> Michael may think differently but I think doing this in Qemu is
much easier.
>> I think the key is whether we position emulating legacy interfaces in
QEMU
>> doing translation on top of a v1.0 modern-only device in the kernel, or
we
>> allow vdpa core (or you can say vhost-vdpa) and vendor driver to
support a
>> transitional model in the kernel that is able to work for both v0.95
and
>> v1.0 drivers, with some slight aid from QEMU for
>> detecting/emulation/shadowing (for e.g CVQ, I/O port relay). I guess
for the
>> former we still rely on vendor for a performant data vqs
implementation,
>> leaving the question to what it may end up eventually in the kernel is
>> effectively the latter).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Siwei
>
> My suggestion is post the kernel patches, and we can evaluate
> how much work they are.
Thanks for the feedback. I will take some read then get back, probably 
after the winter break. Stay tuned.

Thanks,
-Siwei
>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Meanwhile, I'll check internally to see if a legacy only
model would
>>>> work. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> -Siwei
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2021 2:53 AM, Jason Wang wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2021/3/2 5:47 ??, Michael S. Tsirkin
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 01, 2021 at 11:56:50AM
+0800, Jason Wang wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2021/3/1 5:34 ??, Michael S.
Tsirkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at
10:24:41AM -0800, Si-Wei Liu wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Detecting it isn't
enough though, we will need a new ioctl to notify
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the kernel that
it's a legacy guest. Ugh :(
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, although I think
adding an ioctl is doable, may I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know what the use
>>>>>>>>>>>>> case there will be for
kernel to leverage such info
>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly? Is there a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> case QEMU can't do with
dedicate ioctls later if there's indeed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> differentiation (legacy
v.s. modern) needed?
>>>>>>>>>>>> BTW a good API could be
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> #define VHOST_SET_ENDIAN
_IOW(VHOST_VIRTIO, ?, int)
>>>>>>>>>>>> #define VHOST_GET_ENDIAN
_IOW(VHOST_VIRTIO, ?, int)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> we did it per vring but maybe
that was a mistake ...
>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, I wonder whether it's
good time to just not support
>>>>>>>>>>> legacy driver
>>>>>>>>>>> for vDPA. Consider:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1) It's definition is
no-normative
>>>>>>>>>>> 2) A lot of budren of codes
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So qemu can still present the
legacy device since the config
>>>>>>>>>>> space or other
>>>>>>>>>>> stuffs that is presented by
vhost-vDPA is not expected to be
>>>>>>>>>>> accessed by
>>>>>>>>>>> guest directly. Qemu can do the
endian conversion when necessary
>>>>>>>>>>> in this
>>>>>>>>>>> case?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Overall I would be fine with this
approach but we need to avoid breaking
>>>>>>>>>> working userspace, qemu releases with
vdpa support are out there and
>>>>>>>>>> seem to work for people. Any changes
need to take that into account
>>>>>>>>>> and document compatibility concerns.
>>>>>>>>> Agree, let me check.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>       I note that any hardware
>>>>>>>>>> implementation is already broken for
legacy except on platforms with
>>>>>>>>>> strong ordering which might be helpful
in reducing the scope.
>>>>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>