Dear Richard, Thank you, that?s interesting. There is also something called an ?etymological fallacy?. I think current usage is more useful here than the ?science of truth?, i.e. the Ancient Greek idea that the (sometimes inferred) derivation of a word allows us to grasp ?the truth of it?. In current usage, a ?server? is someone who brings you dishes in a restaurant. A ?client? is a customer. A ?slave? is a human being forced to perform work under duress and considered nothing more than a machine, say a dishwasher or a tractor. And in some regions, this echoes on and is offensive and hurtful to some. A new user, wanting to reduce output from R, would probably reach for ?-q? or ??quiet?. This makes sense in the same way that ??stentorian? is not a good alternative to ??verbose?. Best, Ben> On 19 Sep 2019, at 10:55, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz at gmail.com> wrote: > > One of my grandfathers was from Croatia. Guess what the word "slave" is derived > from? That's right, Slavs. This goes back to the 9th century. And then of course > my grandfather's people were enslaved by the Ottoman empire, which was only defeated > a little over a hundred years ago. My other grandfather was from the British isles, > where to this day followers of the same prophet are enslaving people like me > (except for being female). So I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed. > > How many computers are "servers"? There's that whole client-server thing. > Guess what "server" comes from? That's right, the Latin word "servus", which > means guess what? You got it again: "slave". Are we to abolish the word > "server"? What about the word "client"? Ah, that's part of the client-patron > system from Rome, so what about the patriarchy, eh? > > We are dealing with something called "the genetic fallacy". > "The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins ...) > is a fallacy of irrelevance that is based solely on someone's > or something's history, origin, or source rather than its > current meaning or context." (Wikipedia.) > > Context matters. > > > >> On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 17:10, Abby Spurdle <spurdle.a at gmail.com> wrote: >> > Personally I much prefer backwards compatibility to political correctness. >> >> I agree with Rolf, here. >> And as someone that's planning to write a Linux Terminal Emulator, in >> the medium-term future, I *strongly* defend this approach. >> >> And to the original poster. >> Haven't you seen The Matrix? >> (Second best movie ever, after the Shawshank Redemption). >> >> I would prefer the technology to be my slave, than I be a >> prisoner/slave to the technology. >> >> ______________________________________________ >> R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html >> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.[[alternative HTML version deleted]]
On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 11:51:13 +0200 Benjamin Lang <langbnj at gmail.com> wrote:> A new user, wanting to reduce output from R, would probably reach for > ?-q? or ??quiet?.Not to argue against your point, but note that (1) --quiet is already a flag which means something else and (2) --slave is not only a command line option, but also a structure field name. You can find it in src/include/R_ext/RStartup.h, not far away from typedef enum { ... SA_SUICIDE } SA_TYPE. There is also a public API endpoint R_Suicide in src/include/Rinterface.h. One could think that R sources should come with trigger warnings or something. -- Best regards, Ivan
Hi Ben: Without commenting one way or another on your point, your initial post seemed a lot like trolling because of:> Let me reiterate that it is 2019, i.e. "The Future", rather than 1970 when > R was presumably developed, based on its atrocious syntax, documentation > and usability (I think I only need to say "NaN", "NULL", and "NA"). >You are certainly welcome to your opinions about R, but these comments are totally aside from what I assume is your main point, and because of this my first reaction was don't feed the trolls. My $0.02. -Roy> On Sep 19, 2019, at 2:51 AM, Benjamin Lang <langbnj at gmail.com> wrote: > > Dear Richard, > > Thank you, that?s interesting. There is also something called an ?etymological fallacy?. I think current usage is more useful here than the ?science of truth?, i.e. the Ancient Greek idea that the (sometimes inferred) derivation of a word allows us to grasp ?the truth of it?. > > In current usage, a ?server? is someone who brings you dishes in a restaurant. A ?client? is a customer. A ?slave? is a human being forced to perform work under duress and considered nothing more than a machine, say a dishwasher or a tractor. And in some regions, this echoes on and is offensive and hurtful to some. > > A new user, wanting to reduce output from R, would probably reach for ?-q? or ??quiet?. This makes sense in the same way that ??stentorian? is not a good alternative to ??verbose?. > > Best, > Ben > >> On 19 Sep 2019, at 10:55, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> One of my grandfathers was from Croatia. Guess what the word "slave" is derived >> from? That's right, Slavs. This goes back to the 9th century. And then of course >> my grandfather's people were enslaved by the Ottoman empire, which was only defeated >> a little over a hundred years ago. My other grandfather was from the British isles, >> where to this day followers of the same prophet are enslaving people like me >> (except for being female). So I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed. >> >> How many computers are "servers"? There's that whole client-server thing. >> Guess what "server" comes from? That's right, the Latin word "servus", which >> means guess what? You got it again: "slave". Are we to abolish the word >> "server"? What about the word "client"? Ah, that's part of the client-patron >> system from Rome, so what about the patriarchy, eh? >> >> We are dealing with something called "the genetic fallacy". >> "The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins ...) >> is a fallacy of irrelevance that is based solely on someone's >> or something's history, origin, or source rather than its >> current meaning or context." (Wikipedia.) >> >> Context matters. >> >> >> >>> On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 17:10, Abby Spurdle <spurdle.a at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Personally I much prefer backwards compatibility to political correctness. >>> >>> I agree with Rolf, here. >>> And as someone that's planning to write a Linux Terminal Emulator, in >>> the medium-term future, I *strongly* defend this approach. >>> >>> And to the original poster. >>> Haven't you seen The Matrix? >>> (Second best movie ever, after the Shawshank Redemption). >>> >>> I would prefer the technology to be my slave, than I be a >>> prisoner/slave to the technology. >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see >>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >>> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html >>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. > > [[alternative HTML version deleted]] > > ______________________________________________ > R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help > PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.********************** "The contents of this message do not reflect any position of the U.S. Government or NOAA." ********************** Roy Mendelssohn Supervisory Operations Research Analyst NOAA/NMFS Environmental Research Division Southwest Fisheries Science Center ***Note new street address*** 110 McAllister Way Santa Cruz, CA 95060 Phone: (831)-420-3666 Fax: (831) 420-3980 e-mail: Roy.Mendelssohn at noaa.gov www: https://www.pfeg.noaa.gov/ "Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill." "From those who have been given much, much will be expected" "the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice" -MLK Jr.
On 19/09/2019 4:12 p.m., Roy Mendelssohn - NOAA Federal via R-help wrote:> Hi Ben: > > Without commenting one way or another on your point, your initial post seemed a lot like trolling because of: > >> Let me reiterate that it is 2019, i.e. "The Future", rather than 1970 when >> R was presumably developed, based on its atrocious syntax, documentation >> and usability (I think I only need to say "NaN", "NULL", and "NA"). >> > > You are certainly welcome to your opinions about R, but these comments are totally aside from what I assume is your main point, and because of this my first reaction was don't feed the trolls.Why have a second reaction? Trolls are bullies, bullies should be ignored. Duncan Murdoch
Hi Roy, Thank you, I?m sorry ? I couldn?t resist fitting in a little dig there because that?s one of my main frustrations with actually using R, and to me it seemed to make some sort of sense because I was complaining about backwardness in a way (so a steep learning curve seemed to fit in). The error messages are so cryptic that I wonder how anyone ever used R before Google (e.g. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27350636/r-argument-is-of-length-zero-in-if-statement). I?m a bit appalled 50% of the responses think correctness and not being a jerk to some fraction of people is a bad thing and trigger warnings have been brought up (in a funny way). I should have done my research and noticed ?quiet is indeed an existing option, though. If I had an R-related wish, it would be that ??slave? becomes ?-Q? in the documentation and is silently maintained for compatibility. My original post came out of watching ?12 Years A Slave? and if you haven?t, I recommend it. The powerlessness and ultra-grating injustice and the irony of slavery being easily justified by the Bible while abolition is not is an experience. Thanks, Ben P.S. Do any R developers actually read this?> On 19 Sep 2019, at 22:12, Roy Mendelssohn - NOAA Federal <roy.mendelssohn at noaa.gov> wrote: > > Hi Ben: > > Without commenting one way or another on your point, your initial post seemed a lot like trolling because of: > >> Let me reiterate that it is 2019, i.e. "The Future", rather than 1970 when >> R was presumably developed, based on its atrocious syntax, documentation >> and usability (I think I only need to say "NaN", "NULL", and "NA"). >> > > You are certainly welcome to your opinions about R, but these comments are totally aside from what I assume is your main point, and because of this my first reaction was don't feed the trolls. > > My $0.02. > > -Roy > >> On Sep 19, 2019, at 2:51 AM, Benjamin Lang <langbnj at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Dear Richard, >> >> Thank you, that?s interesting. There is also something called an ?etymological fallacy?. I think current usage is more useful here than the ?science of truth?, i.e. the Ancient Greek idea that the (sometimes inferred) derivation of a word allows us to grasp ?the truth of it?. >> >> In current usage, a ?server? is someone who brings you dishes in a restaurant. A ?client? is a customer. A ?slave? is a human being forced to perform work under duress and considered nothing more than a machine, say a dishwasher or a tractor. And in some regions, this echoes on and is offensive and hurtful to some. >> >> A new user, wanting to reduce output from R, would probably reach for ?-q? or ??quiet?. This makes sense in the same way that ??stentorian? is not a good alternative to ??verbose?. >> >> Best, >> Ben >> >>> On 19 Sep 2019, at 10:55, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> One of my grandfathers was from Croatia. Guess what the word "slave" is derived >>> from? That's right, Slavs. This goes back to the 9th century. And then of course >>> my grandfather's people were enslaved by the Ottoman empire, which was only defeated >>> a little over a hundred years ago. My other grandfather was from the British isles, >>> where to this day followers of the same prophet are enslaving people like me >>> (except for being female). So I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed. >>> >>> How many computers are "servers"? There's that whole client-server thing. >>> Guess what "server" comes from? That's right, the Latin word "servus", which >>> means guess what? You got it again: "slave". Are we to abolish the word >>> "server"? What about the word "client"? Ah, that's part of the client-patron >>> system from Rome, so what about the patriarchy, eh? >>> >>> We are dealing with something called "the genetic fallacy". >>> "The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins ...) >>> is a fallacy of irrelevance that is based solely on someone's >>> or something's history, origin, or source rather than its >>> current meaning or context." (Wikipedia.) >>> >>> Context matters. >>> >>> >>> >>>>> On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 17:10, Abby Spurdle <spurdle.a at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> Personally I much prefer backwards compatibility to political correctness. >>>> >>>> I agree with Rolf, here. >>>> And as someone that's planning to write a Linux Terminal Emulator, in >>>> the medium-term future, I *strongly* defend this approach. >>>> >>>> And to the original poster. >>>> Haven't you seen The Matrix? >>>> (Second best movie ever, after the Shawshank Redemption). >>>> >>>> I would prefer the technology to be my slave, than I be a >>>> prisoner/slave to the technology. >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see >>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >>>> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html >>>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. >> >> [[alternative HTML version deleted]] >> >> ______________________________________________ >> R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >> PLEASE do read the posting guide http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html >> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. > > ********************** > "The contents of this message do not reflect any position of the U.S. Government or NOAA." > ********************** > Roy Mendelssohn > Supervisory Operations Research Analyst > NOAA/NMFS > Environmental Research Division > Southwest Fisheries Science Center > ***Note new street address*** > 110 McAllister Way > Santa Cruz, CA 95060 > Phone: (831)-420-3666 > Fax: (831) 420-3980 > e-mail: Roy.Mendelssohn at noaa.gov www: https://www.pfeg.noaa.gov/ > > "Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill." > "From those who have been given much, much will be expected" > "the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice" -MLK Jr. >[[alternative HTML version deleted]]
Nobody would use "stentorian" as an alternative to "verbose"
because they
mean very different things.
"verbose" means "using many words"
"stentorian" means "talking very loudly, like Stentor, whose
voice was as
powerful
as fifty voices of other men".
You can be verbose while talking in a whisper.
You can be stentorian while being laconic.
If you don't like the word "slave", the option
"--silent" is there for you
to use.
The "master-slave" design pattern is in hundreds of books (although I
note
that
Erlang uses different terminology). Your car has a master hydraulic
cylinder and
slave cylinders. The analogy is pervasive in technology. See a very short
list
at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)
which ends with "Global Language Monitor
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Language_Monitor> found the term
"master/slave" to be the most
egregious example of political correctness
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness> in 2004, and named
it
the most politically
incorrect term of that year."
The one thing "slave" does not mean in technology is any kind of human
being.
On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 21:51, Benjamin Lang <langbnj at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Richard,
>
> Thank you, that?s interesting. There is also something called an
> ?etymological fallacy?. I think current usage is more useful here than the
> ?science of truth?, i.e. the Ancient Greek idea that the (sometimes
> inferred) derivation of a word allows us to grasp ?the truth of it?.
>
> In current usage, a ?server? is someone who brings you dishes in a
> restaurant. A ?client? is a customer. A ?slave? is a human being forced to
> perform work under duress and considered nothing more than a machine, say a
> dishwasher or a tractor. And in some regions, this echoes on and is
> offensive and hurtful to some.
>
> A new user, wanting to reduce output from R, would probably reach for ?-q?
> or ??quiet?. This makes sense in the same way that ??stentorian? is not a
> good alternative to ??verbose?.
>
> Best,
> Ben
>
> On 19 Sep 2019, at 10:55, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> One of my grandfathers was from Croatia. Guess what the word
"slave" is
> derived
> from? That's right, Slavs. This goes back to the 9th century. And
then
> of course
> my grandfather's people were enslaved by the Ottoman empire, which was
> only defeated
> a little over a hundred years ago. My other grandfather was from the
> British isles,
> where to this day followers of the same prophet are enslaving people like
> me
> (except for being female). So I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed.
>
> How many computers are "servers"? There's that whole
client-server thing.
> Guess what "server" comes from? That's right, the Latin word
"servus",
> which
> means guess what? You got it again: "slave". Are we to abolish
the word
> "server"? What about the word "client"? Ah,
that's part of the
> client-patron
> system from Rome, so what about the patriarchy, eh?
>
> We are dealing with something called "the genetic fallacy".
> "The genetic *fallacy* (also known as the *fallacy of origins* ...)
> is a *fallacy* of irrelevance that is based solely on someone's
> or something's history, *origin*, or source rather than its
> current meaning or context." (Wikipedia.)
>
> Context matters.
>
>
>
> On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 17:10, Abby Spurdle <spurdle.a at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>> > Personally I much prefer backwards compatibility to political
>> correctness.
>>
>> I agree with Rolf, here.
>> And as someone that's planning to write a Linux Terminal Emulator,
in
>> the medium-term future, I *strongly* defend this approach.
>>
>> And to the original poster.
>> Haven't you seen The Matrix?
>> (Second best movie ever, after the Shawshank Redemption).
>>
>> I would prefer the technology to be my slave, than I be a
>> prisoner/slave to the technology.
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>>
>
[[alternative HTML version deleted]]
Hi Richard, Sure, it's a silly example, but it makes about as much sense as using "slave" to mean "quiet". Also, there is no "--master" option so it's not exactly the master/slave terminology here either. My only point is that I think it's very distasteful to give such a needlessly awful name to an option in what has become a very broadly used piece of software. It would be good to update it, I think. If anyone knows how to actually pass this on to the R developers/contributors, please let me know. Thanks, Ben On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 05:14, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz at gmail.com> wrote:> Nobody would use "stentorian" as an alternative to "verbose" because they > mean very different things. > "verbose" means "using many words" > "stentorian" means "talking very loudly, like Stentor, whose voice was > as powerful > as fifty voices of other men". > You can be verbose while talking in a whisper. > You can be stentorian while being laconic. > > If you don't like the word "slave", the option "--silent" is there for you > to use. > > The "master-slave" design pattern is in hundreds of books (although I note > that > Erlang uses different terminology). Your car has a master hydraulic > cylinder and > slave cylinders. The analogy is pervasive in technology. See a very > short list > at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology) > which ends with "Global Language Monitor > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Language_Monitor> found the term > "master/slave" to be the most > egregious example of political correctness > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness> in 2004, and named > it the most politically > incorrect term of that year." > > The one thing "slave" does not mean in technology is any kind of human > being. > > On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 21:51, Benjamin Lang <langbnj at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear Richard, >> >> Thank you, that?s interesting. There is also something called an >> ?etymological fallacy?. I think current usage is more useful here than the >> ?science of truth?, i.e. the Ancient Greek idea that the (sometimes >> inferred) derivation of a word allows us to grasp ?the truth of it?. >> >> In current usage, a ?server? is someone who brings you dishes in a >> restaurant. A ?client? is a customer. A ?slave? is a human being forced to >> perform work under duress and considered nothing more than a machine, say a >> dishwasher or a tractor. And in some regions, this echoes on and is >> offensive and hurtful to some. >> >> A new user, wanting to reduce output from R, would probably reach for >> ?-q? or ??quiet?. This makes sense in the same way that ??stentorian? is >> not a good alternative to ??verbose?. >> >> Best, >> Ben >> >> On 19 Sep 2019, at 10:55, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> One of my grandfathers was from Croatia. Guess what the word "slave" is >> derived >> from? That's right, Slavs. This goes back to the 9th century. And then >> of course >> my grandfather's people were enslaved by the Ottoman empire, which was >> only defeated >> a little over a hundred years ago. My other grandfather was from the >> British isles, >> where to this day followers of the same prophet are enslaving people like >> me >> (except for being female). So I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed. >> >> How many computers are "servers"? There's that whole client-server thing. >> Guess what "server" comes from? That's right, the Latin word "servus", >> which >> means guess what? You got it again: "slave". Are we to abolish the word >> "server"? What about the word "client"? Ah, that's part of the >> client-patron >> system from Rome, so what about the patriarchy, eh? >> >> We are dealing with something called "the genetic fallacy". >> "The genetic *fallacy* (also known as the *fallacy of origins* ...) >> is a *fallacy* of irrelevance that is based solely on someone's >> or something's history, *origin*, or source rather than its >> current meaning or context." (Wikipedia.) >> >> Context matters. >> >> >> >> On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 17:10, Abby Spurdle <spurdle.a at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> > Personally I much prefer backwards compatibility to political >>> correctness. >>> >>> I agree with Rolf, here. >>> And as someone that's planning to write a Linux Terminal Emulator, in >>> the medium-term future, I *strongly* defend this approach. >>> >>> And to the original poster. >>> Haven't you seen The Matrix? >>> (Second best movie ever, after the Shawshank Redemption). >>> >>> I would prefer the technology to be my slave, than I be a >>> prisoner/slave to the technology. >>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> R-help at r-project.org mailing list -- To UNSUBSCRIBE and more, see >>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help >>> PLEASE do read the posting guide >>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html >>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. >>> >>[[alternative HTML version deleted]]