llvm dev - Jun 2014 - [LLVMdev] [cfe-dev] [ADVERTISEMENT] open positions in Apple's Swift compiler team

On Jun 10, 2014, at 5:36 PM, C. Bergström <cbergstrom at pathscale.com>
wrote:
> On 06/11/14 06:58 AM, Ted Kremenek wrote:
>> ** NOTE: This is a compiler job announcement. **
>> 
>> The Apple Source Languages team is looking for exceptional engineers to
work on the Swift programming language:
> Maybe this has been asked already and I missed it - Will Swift be open
source?
At this time, we honestly don't know the answer yet to that question.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 1:44 AM, Ted Kremenek <kremenek at apple.com>
wrote:
> On Jun 10, 2014, at 5:36 PM, C. Bergström <cbergstrom at
pathscale.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On 06/11/14 06:58 AM, Ted Kremenek wrote:
> >> ** NOTE: This is a compiler job announcement. **
> >>
> >> The Apple Source Languages team is looking for exceptional
engineers to
> work on the Swift programming language:
> > Maybe this has been asked already and I missed it - Will Swift be open
> source?
>
> At this time, we honestly don't know the answer yet to that question.

Ted, we've routinely pushed back strongly against job postings for compiler
jobs that aren't specifically working on LLVM, Clang, or some other part of
the LLVM project.

If Swift ends up open source, and if it ends up as part of the LLVM project
(neither of which seem clear as you say), only then would it seem
appropriate to send this kind of job ad email to these lists.

This is the second off-topic job posting in the last few weeks, so I'm
particularly sensitive. I really don't want the lists to become cluttered
here.

Thanks,
-Chandler
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20140611/d798bbf2/attachment.html>

On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 02:39:08PM +0100, Chandler Carruth
wrote:
> Ted, we've routinely pushed back strongly against job postings for
compiler
> jobs that aren't specifically working on LLVM, Clang, or some other
part of
> the LLVM project.
At the very least, the mail didn't make it clear that Swift is a project
on top of LLVM. Not everyone went to the Apple house conference and
knows it.

Joerg

Dear All,

Historically, we *have* permitted job announcements for jobs that 
require or desire expertise with LLVM or one of it's sub-projects.  To 
the best of my knowledge, we've never required that the position 
announcement state that the job will contribute directly to the LLVM 
project (or its sub-projects) or that the code created by the position 
be open source.

As an example, please see 
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2014-May/072938.html and 
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2010-August/033695.html.

Using this criteria, I believe that Ted's post is on-topic (although I 
agree that it should have stated the connection with LLVM more prominently).

If there is now an official policy that I've overlooked stating 
otherwise, please let me know.

Regards,

John Criswell


On 6/11/14, 8:39 AM, Chandler Carruth wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 1:44 AM, Ted Kremenek <kremenek at apple.com 
> <mailto:kremenek at apple.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Jun 10, 2014, at 5:36 PM, C. Bergström
>     <cbergstrom at pathscale.com <mailto:cbergstrom at
pathscale.com>> wrote:
>
>     > On 06/11/14 06:58 AM, Ted Kremenek wrote:
>     >> ** NOTE: This is a compiler job announcement. **
>     >>
>     >> The Apple Source Languages team is looking for exceptional
>     engineers to work on the Swift programming language:
>     > Maybe this has been asked already and I missed it - Will Swift
>     be open source?
>
>     At this time, we honestly don't know the answer yet to that
question.
>
>
> Ted, we've routinely pushed back strongly against job postings for 
> compiler jobs that aren't specifically working on LLVM, Clang, or some 
> other part of the LLVM project.
>
> If Swift ends up open source, and if it ends up as part of the LLVM 
> project (neither of which seem clear as you say), only then would it 
> seem appropriate to send this kind of job ad email to these lists.
>
> This is the second off-topic job posting in the last few weeks, so I'm 
> particularly sensitive. I really don't want the lists to become 
> cluttered here.
>
> Thanks,
> -Chandler
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> LLVMdev at cs.uiuc.edu         http://llvm.cs.uiuc.edu
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/llvmdev
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20140611/42a39542/attachment.html>

On 06/11/14 08:39 PM, Chandler Carruth wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 1:44 AM, Ted Kremenek <kremenek at apple.com 
> <mailto:kremenek at apple.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Jun 10, 2014, at 5:36 PM, C. Bergström
>     <cbergstrom at pathscale.com <mailto:cbergstrom at
pathscale.com>> wrote:
>
>     > On 06/11/14 06:58 AM, Ted Kremenek wrote:
>     >> ** NOTE: This is a compiler job announcement. **
>     >>
>     >> The Apple Source Languages team is looking for exceptional
>     engineers to work on the Swift programming language:
>     > Maybe this has been asked already and I missed it - Will Swift
>     be open source?
>
>     At this time, we honestly don't know the answer yet to that
question.
>
>
> Ted, we've routinely pushed back strongly against job postings for 
> compiler jobs that aren't specifically working on LLVM, Clang, or some 
> other part of the LLVM project.
>
> If Swift ends up open source, and if it ends up as part of the LLVM 
> project (neither of which seem clear as you say), only then would it 
> seem appropriate to send this kind of job ad email to these lists.
>
> This is the second off-topic job posting in the last few weeks, so I'm 
> particularly sensitive. I really don't want the lists to become 
> cluttered here.
In the past myself and others have posted clang related jobs which 
aren't open source. I don't think that should be a strict requirement 
and sorry for the noise my question brought up.

That is surprising since Swift has reportedly been in development for a 
number of years internally. Apple has a long history with Open Source 
including this very project.  You had to know that this question was 
going to be asked very quickly after the announcement.  Given that you 
don't have an answer even now I would tend to be pessimistic...

On 06/10/2014 08:44 PM, Ted Kremenek wrote:
> On Jun 10, 2014, at 5:36 PM, C. Bergström <cbergstrom at
pathscale.com> wrote:
>
>> On 06/11/14 06:58 AM, Ted Kremenek wrote:
>>> ** NOTE: This is a compiler job announcement. **
>>>
>>> The Apple Source Languages team is looking for exceptional
engineers to work on the Swift programming language:
>> Maybe this has been asked already and I missed it - Will Swift be open
source?
> At this time, we honestly don't know the answer yet to that question.
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> LLVMdev at cs.uiuc.edu         http://llvm.cs.uiuc.edu
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/llvmdev

On 06/11/14 10:56 PM, Adam Treat wrote:
> That is surprising since Swift has reportedly been in development for 
> a number of years internally. Apple has a long history with Open 
> Source including this very project.  You had to know that this 
> question was going to be asked very quickly after the announcement.  
> Given that you don't have an answer even now I would tend to be 
> pessimistic...
I wouldn't be pessimistic so quickly - Remember that most likely the 
engineers were just focused on the technical side and maybe didn't even 
have a chance to look about getting it pushed publicly. Even though 
Lattner has a lot of influence at Apple - there are tall legal hurdles 
for large public companies.

If it gets enough developer adoption - I'm sure someone (from Apple or 
community) will eventually start to contribute patches upstream to clang.

Guys, feel free to make up your own dragons if you want, but your speculation is
just that: speculation.  We literally have not even discussed this yet, because
we have a ton of work to do to respond to the huge volume of feedback we're
getting, and have to get a huge number of things (e.g. access control!) done
before the 1.0 release this fall.  You can imagine that many of us want it to be
open source and part of llvm, but the discussion hasn't happened yet, and
won't for some time.

Sorry to leave you all hanging, but there is just far too much to deal with
right now.

-Chris

> On Jun 11, 2014, at 8:56 AM, Adam Treat <adam.treat at samsung.com>
wrote:
> That is surprising since Swift has reportedly been in development for a
number of years internally. Apple has a long history with Open Source including
this very project.  You had to know that this question was going to be asked
very quickly after the announcement.  Given that you don't have an answer
even now I would tend to be pessimistic...
> 
> On 06/10/2014 08:44 PM, Ted Kremenek wrote:
>> On Jun 10, 2014, at 5:36 PM, C. Bergström <cbergstrom at
pathscale.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 06/11/14 06:58 AM, Ted Kremenek wrote:
>>>> ** NOTE: This is a compiler job announcement. **
>>>> 
>>>> The Apple Source Languages team is looking for exceptional
engineers to work on the Swift programming language:
>>> Maybe this has been asked already and I missed it - Will Swift be
open source?
>> At this time, we honestly don't know the answer yet to that
question.
>> _______________________________________________
>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>> LLVMdev at cs.uiuc.edu         http://llvm.cs.uiuc.edu
>> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/llvmdev
> 
> _______________________________________________
> cfe-dev mailing list
> cfe-dev at cs.uiuc.edu
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev